State Semis

[Hawks Coach]

Some interesting occurrences at yesterday's double overtime state semifinal game:

1. Coming out for warm-ups at halftime, star guard for Team A goes to ref at center court and starts a short discussion, pointing to both ends of the court. Ref listens,then goes to talk to one of his partners, who nods her assent. Offense lines up on their defnsive end, with guard lining up in what appears to be their backcourt but is really their front court. Defense keys off offense and puts 5 at the A's defensive end, leaving A1 open for lay-up. As ball is made live, B1 and B2 run upcourt realizing belatedly what is occuring. Inbounds pass is made unobstructed, horn sounds, whistle blows, uncontested lay-up is made, and all is waved off. OOOOPS - forgot to set the clock to 8:00.

2. A is down 2, star guard getting doubled at every opportunity to get ball out of her hands. A1 dribbling f/c, B1 strips the ball in between circles in A's f/c, a1 touches in f/c, then recovers in b/c. After recovering ball, A1 pivots and puts on the floor for a dribble and gets knocked to floor. Call is a foul on B2. A1 goes to the line to shoot to tie the game (makes one of two, a2 later sinks tying FT to put game in OT). Maybe the owed A one from before

3. A gets ball under B's basket, game tied in double OT, 1.5 left. A subs with their designated baseball passer A1, gets a player wide open (i.e., 20 feet of space) at halfcourt, and A1 (the long pass specialist) puts ball several feet over her head and OOB untouched. OOOPS. B calls TO to set up play, and A subs A1 back out with A2 who A1 had replaced, because A2 isn't getting killed on D the way A1 had early in the game. But the clock never started on the inbounds play - the sub is illegal. B wins anyway, so no harm done!

Some think that what is discussed here falls into the trivia category, but lots of what I have seen discussed here happens, and you need to be prepared when you are on the floor for the big game.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
3. A gets ball under B's basket, game tied in double OT, 1.5 left. A subs with their designated baseball passer A1, gets a player wide open (i.e., 20 feet of space) at halfcourt, and A1 (the long pass specialist) puts ball several feet over her head and OOB untouched. OOOPS. B calls TO to set up play, and A subs A1 back out with A2 who A1 had replaced, because A2 isn't getting killed on D the way A1 had early in the game. But the clock never started on the inbounds play - the sub is illegal. B wins anyway, so no harm done!

Three times this year I had to enforce the "sub can't return untile the clock runs" rule.

Never before (nor have any of my partners in those particular games). Don't know if I missed it or if it never happened before.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

2.A1 dribbling f/c, B1 strips the ball in between circles in A's f/c, a1 touches in f/c, then recovers in b/c. After recovering ball, A1 pivots and puts on the floor for a dribble and gets knocked to floor. Call is a foul on B2.

[/B]

Did B1 get player control after she stripped the ball? If not, shoulda been a back court violation on A1 as soon as she touched the ball in the back court.

[Hawks Coach]

My point exactly JR.

In response to your question, no, it was simply a tap by B1 with B1 and B2 trapping A1, A1 went to recover the ball and touched it f/c and caught it b/c. Textbook b/c in the Tony quiz. In the game, resulted in 1 pt for A!

[Jurassic Referee]

Ouch!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Some interesting occurrences at yesterday's double overtime state semifinal game:

1. Coming out for warm-ups at halftime, star guard for Team A goes to ref at center court and starts a short discussion, pointing to both ends of the court. Ref listens,then goes to talk to one of his partners, who nods her assent. Offense lines up on their defnsive end, with guard lining up in what appears to be their backcourt but is really their front court. Defense keys off offense and puts 5 at the A's defensive end, leaving A1 open for lay-up. As ball is made live, B1 and B2 run upcourt realizing belatedly what is occuring. Inbounds pass is made unobstructed, horn sounds, whistle blows, uncontested lay-up is made, and all is waved off. OOOOPS - forgot to set the clock to 8:00.

Holy cow.

I saw this exact play myself this year and it is surprising how easily it works. But why oh why would the basket be waved off???

[Hawks Coach]

It's simple. Pass, horn, whistle, shot. Ball was blown dead before shot.

This also goes back to the old question of you make the ball ready for a throw in, the ball is thrown, you see the clock hasn't started but A has an advantage (especially off a tricky inbounds play), do you or don't you blow the whistle right away? What would you do here, with A going in for uncontested lay-up, and you knew in advance that it was likely to happen.

The interesting thing is that the coach took care to let the refs know what he was going to do. But he said nothing to the table (like get the clock ready quick cause we are coming quick on the inbound), even though I think that the table staff are neutral at the state finals tournament. He then got his players on the court early (maybe even before clock ran out - not sure) so that the alignment would have it's desired effect (tricking B as they left the huddle). That last act hastened B's return to the court and the subsequent lack of readiness of the clock.

[Nevadaref]

Sounds to me like the officials failed to do something that they should on this inbounds play.

2003-5 Officials Manual page 30
217. The alternating-possession throw-in to start the second, third and fourth quarters shall be administered by the Referee at the division line opposite the table. Indicate color and direction, designate the throw-in spot, sound the whistle to alert players that play is about to begin, and place the ball at the thrower's disposal.

If the Referee failed to indicate the color and direction prior to the throw-in he is aiding the team running the trick play and giving them an unfair advantage. If he properly did this, I don't see how the defense could still be on the wrong end.

I know this cite because we have a coach out here who runs this play, too. He got upset when I said, "White," while pointing in his team's correct direction before I blew the whistle to start a quarter. He said that ruins his trick play. I informed him that I have to do my assigned duties whether he is running a trick play or not.

Afterall, we are out there to administer the game fairly for both teams, not to be complicite in someone's trickery.

[Hawks Coach]

As the throw in was administered, the ref followed the appropriate mechanic. That's probably why the top two players in the zone had a sudde flash of recognition and started running back up court. If all players are on the court and appear ready for play (these players were in a 2-3 zone and offense was all ready), whistle, signal, and administer the throw-in (no requirement to hold the ball while defense shifts). This was done. What was skipped was checking the clock set to 8:00.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Some interesting occurrences at yesterday's double overtime state semifinal game:

1. Coming out for warm-ups at halftime, star guard for Team A goes to ref at center court and starts a short discussion, pointing to both ends of the court. Ref listens,then goes to talk to one of his partners, who nods her assent. Offense lines up on their defnsive end, with guard lining up in what appears to be their backcourt but is really their front court. Defense keys off offense and puts 5 at the A's defensive end, leaving A1 open for lay-up. As ball is made live, B1 and B2 run upcourt realizing belatedly what is occuring. Inbounds pass is made unobstructed, horn sounds, whistle blows, uncontested lay-up is made, and all is waved off. OOOOPS - forgot to set the clock to 8:00.

Ref's error. Wish I see this play sometime.

2. A is down 2, star guard getting doubled at every opportunity to get ball out of her hands. A1 dribbling f/c, B1 strips the ball in between circles in A's f/c, a1 touches in f/c, then recovers in b/c. After recovering ball, A1 pivots and puts on the floor for a dribble and gets knocked to floor. Call is a foul on B2. A1 goes to the line to shoot to tie the game (makes one of two, a2 later sinks tying FT to put game in OT). Maybe the owed A one from before

Hmm... BCV?

3. A gets ball under B's basket, game tied in double OT, 1.5 left. A subs with their designated baseball passer A1, gets a player wide open (i.e., 20 feet of space) at halfcourt, and A1 (the long pass specialist) puts ball several feet over her head and OOB untouched. OOOPS. B calls TO to set up play, and A subs A1 back out with A2 who A1 had replaced, because A2 isn't getting killed on D the way A1 had early in the game. But the clock never started on the inbounds play - the sub is illegal. B wins anyway, so no harm done!

Some think that what is discussed here falls into the trivia category, but lots of what I have seen discussed here happens, and you need to be prepared when you are on the floor for the big game.

Had this one this year. (JR: had this with CV!) 0.3 left, team up by 1, baseball pass it the full length of the court. Not touched. Bring it back. Now, we're in the FC, endline. Gotta tip though. Coach calls TO. Coach calls 2nd TO during live ball throw-in. She didn't know the tip rule, as we found out after the game. I wanted to tell her during the TO b/c she was smokin' hot, but I kept my thoughts to myself.

My P and I came up with the funny scenario that A up by 1 with 0.3 left but had to go the full length of the court. To rub it in, they could have passed the ball to B. B will catch it and therefore the game is over. Even though their basket is only 6 feet away.

It's a perfectly acceptable form of trash talk, depending on how you look at it. Imagine A2 throws-in nonshalauntly (sp?) tossing the ball to B just after the ref hands her the ball.

[DJ]

In the first scenario, did the officials line up in their proper postions or did they help the play by lining up the wrong way? I have seen teams pull this play without telling the officials and the officials aid the play by lining up in the wrong end which even leads to more confusion!

[tomegun]

JugglingRef, that is sweet! Clock at .3 and you are up, just throw the ball to the other team. Of course they will catch it and game over!

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by DJ
In the first scenario, did the officials line up in their proper postions or did they help the play by lining up the wrong way? I have seen teams pull this play without telling the officials and the officials aid the play by lining up in the wrong end which even leads to more confusion!

I don't know the mechanics of where you should be lined up on the inobunds for 3 whistle, as I never get to play 3 whistle and didn't look that close. If I remember correctly, L was under A's basket, C administered the throw (not sure though) and T was in b/c on sideline. I am sure about L from how play went, not about the other two's position when ball was admninistered for throw-in.

[Nevadaref]

For 3-man AP throw-in to start the quarter:
The R administers the throw-in opposite table and is the Trail. There is a U at the Lead position on the same side as the R on the end line of the basket to which the throw-in team is shooting. The other U is the C and is on the sideline tableside. The C can position himself just about anywhere between the two free throw lines as needed based on where most of the players line up. Get where you need to be to see the play. However, under normal situations the C will be near the free-throw line extended in the front court.

[Hawks Coach]

But if all players on the court but one player are under the basket in A's b/c, one player is inbounding, and one is just over the line in A's frontcourt, even a positioning in the b/c along sideline would be ok. I know there was one ref on near sideline, and obviously one administering, and one under A's basket. Sounds like it was kosher to me.