legal or not

[Hawks Coach]

But I would have incidental contact!

I don't think you want to look to call something on this, but the catch pass, hit ref catch and/or dribble scenario has to be called. I would go fishing here.

[Camron Rust]

In all cases, it's a violation.

Once the player picked up the ball, even briefly with one hand, the dribble ended. The ball hit the official...the same as hitting the floor. If the player touches it again, its an illegal dribble.

The only time a player is permitted to recover a ball that has been dribbled (and otherwise untouched) is when they fumble the ball. A pass is not a fumble.

[Hawks Coach]

All cases refers to what Camron? One case I gave ivovles a player who is dribbling, then changes the angle of his downward push on the ball to initiate a bounce pass. If the player goes to recover the ball, with or without contact with the ref, that recovery is legal.

Even though we al know it was an attempted bounce pass and not a dribble, nothing that the dribbler did ended the dribble. He simply pushed the ball to the floor again.

That is the only case I can think of where the dribble would not be ended with a pass. Not that common (but may see it a couple of times a game), and probably not what the original poster intended.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
All cases refers to what Camron?

To pass the ball, the dribble must end. Most one handed passes I see turn the ball sideways and this case sounds no different. In the original #1 scenario, the "passed" ball went by a teammate and hit an official. I've inferred that the distance the ball traveled was inconsitent with pushing it to the floor but was actually a catch and throw.

My all cases was to cover whether it hit the floor or not, hit the official or not, etc.

If the ball was pushed to the floor as if a bounce pass to a teammate that was really close, I would agree that it could be considered just part of the dribble.

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

One case I gave ivovles a player who is dribbling, then changes the angle of his downward push on the ball to initiate a bounce pass. If the player goes to recover the ball, with or without contact with the ref, that recovery is legal.

Even though we al know it was an attempted bounce pass and not a dribble, nothing that the dribbler did ended the dribble. He simply pushed the ball to the floor again.

That is the only case I can think of where the dribble would not be ended with a pass. Not that common (but may see it a couple of times a game), and probably not what the original poster intended.

For the #2 case, it would always be legal to pick up the ball.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Start with the scenario that xxxssmen gave, but after it bounces off the ref, say that it touches A1's leg, or body. Is that also a double dribble? Is it nothing?

rainmaker,

Look again at the definition of a dribble that I posted: (4-15-1) "A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times."

Now do you think that the ball bouncing off a player's leg is a second dribble?
That should answer your question.

PS Thanks to you and Hawks Coach for the props.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Now do you think that the ball bouncing off a player's leg is a second dribble?
That should answer your question.

I don't know if it SHOULD answer my question, but it doesn't. What I think is really not as important as what Howard thinks. How I interpret something will get me out of a jam (sometimes) on an issue I haven't studied, but the important point is how the rules committee wants it interpreted.

So on this particular issue, I don't think that if the ball bounces back and hits the player again it should be a double dribble. But it sounds like Camron thinks it should. He knows Howard better than I do, so I'm taking his word for it. Unless I'm misunderstanding what he's saying, it's a double dribble in my book from now on.

[Hawks Coach]

rainmaker
That's why I was asking Camron which cases he was referring to, but in retrospect, I realize that it was probably so disjointed that my point was not at all made. o, in the interest of being cler. . .

Camron!
In your opinion, is a pass by A1 that hits the ref then contacts A1 in the knee a violation on A1? Or does A1 have to touch the ball with one or both hands after it strikes the ref? I say the latter, but I wasn't clear what you position was.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
rainmaker
That's why I was asking Camron which cases he was referring to, but in retrospect, I realize that it was probably so disjointed that my point was not at all made. o, in the interest of being cler. . .

Camron!
In your opinion, is a pass by A1 that hits the ref then contacts A1 in the knee a violation on A1? Or does A1 have to touch the ball with one or both hands after it strikes the ref? I say the latter, but I wasn't clear what you position was.

This is certain getting into the realm of wacky plays!!

But, why not...

It'd have to be a controlled/deliberate touch...not a richochet.

This is really getting into pure judgement of what to do and probably depends mostly on how the actions are interpreted. I'm sure this one could have a few supportable conclusions.

[Bart Tyson]

Camron!
In your opinion, is a pass by A1 that hits the ref then contacts A1 in the knee a violation on A1? Or does A1 have to touch the ball with one or both hands after it strikes the ref? I say the latter, but I wasn't clear what you position was. [/B]

OK, May I have a try at this play? Thanks. The Knee, hand, beehind, Makes no difference. What do you have if while dribbling, the ball touches the hand to push down for a dribble and before it hits the floor the ball touches the knee?

[Hawks Coach]

interrrupted dribble - good point - but I am not sure how this applies to a dribble that has ceased. I think that Nevada's definition of the dribble provided the best guidance - if you aren't pushing the ball to the floor, you aren't dribbling. So I see pass, ricochet, bounce off any body part except the hand as just a touch, not a double dribble. Go ahead and reach out and touch or grab the ball, you have a violation.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
interrrupted dribble - good point - but I am not sure how this applies to a dribble that has ceased. I think that Nevada's definition of the dribble provided the best guidance - if you aren't pushing the ball to the floor, you aren't dribbling. So I see pass, ricochet, bounce off any body part except the hand as just a touch, not a double dribble. Go ahead and reach out and touch or grab the ball, you have a violation.

I concur.
Justice Nevadaref