"...poor game management...."

[Bart Tyson]

I agree with Dan_ref and Rich Fronheiser. The most I will do is put the ball down at a point when I KNOW it will not have an effect on the game. And it still gets the message accross. i.e. Team A, walking to the throwin spot, 15' away, no pressure from Team B, I put the ball down and have a slow count. I have never had a violation in this situation.

[icallfouls]

I merely put it out there as a situation. I prefer to use preventative officiating. I have my own protocol that I like to follow, but we all know that there are officials out there that would handle it "by the book." We also know that certain coaches have their "pet" peaves.

[rainmaker]

I'm checking in kinda late on this thread, and it intrigues me that no one is discussing the initial situation which is that the team who was to put the ball into play was ready to go, and it was another several seconds before mick put the ball into play. Why should a team that is ready to go be penalized because the other team is breaking the rule? Give them the ball, and let em get the easy score. That's their reward for doing what they ought to.

[Rich]

Originally posted by rainmaker
I'm checking in kinda late on this thread, and it intrigues me that no one is discussing the initial situation which is that the team who was to put the ball into play was ready to go, and it was another several seconds before mick put the ball into play. Why should a team that is ready to go be penalized because the other team is breaking the rule? Give them the ball, and let em get the easy score. That's their reward for doing what they ought to.

Do this in a varsity game and within 24 hours you'll be talking to your assignor and the state office about why you had to run a coach. And everyone will wonder why you allowed a team to score an uncontested basket. And it will come back on you.

Maybe not everywhere, but that's my instinct.

[tomegun]

Yeah, what Rich said. That is kind or bush league for a varsity game. There is a lot you could do before this.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by rainmaker
I'm checking in kinda late on this thread, and it intrigues me that no one is discussing the initial situation which is that the team who was to put the ball into play was ready to go, and it was another several seconds before mick put the ball into play. Why should a team that is ready to go be penalized because the other team is breaking the rule? Give them the ball, and let em get the easy score. That's their reward for doing what they ought to.

Julie, I agree with you.

I reread Mick's post, and it appeared that he did everything correctly. I do not see a problem putting the ball into play. Team V in Mick's post complied with the rules of the game. Team H was not complying with the rules. The rules are specific in how to handle a resuming play situation. If Team H wants to ignore the rules then it has no complaint if it gives up an uncontested field goal.

Regarding this happening in a varsity game, varsity coaches are not different that coaches at the lower level. Varsity coaches will take every millimeter that officials will give them. Right now I asssume that there readers that are asking the question: Have you done this to a team in a varsity game? Yes. Why? Because it was the correct thing to do. The varsity coach complained, but he had his team ready to go according to the rules every timeout the rest of the game.

Personally, I do not like the resuming play rule. but that is the topic of another thread.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
[/B]

Do this in a varsity game and within 24 hours you'll be talking to your assignor and the state office about why you had to run a coach. And everyone will wonder why you allowed a team to score an uncontested basket. And it will come back on you.

Maybe not everywhere, but that's my instinct.

[/B][/QUOTE]I think that you got one thing right. The "not everywhere" part at the last.

Rich, I may agree with your point of view. Maybe not all of it, but most of it. What I don't agree with is you trying to justify your opinion over someone else's opinion by making blanket statements alluding that assignors, state offices, and "everyone" in the world automatically agrees with your opinion. I mean "everyone will wonder"? That just ain't so. Other responses in this thread have already proved that wrong. Usually you're not the type of poster that tries to back their own opinion by using the old "don't call that or you'll never make it to a higher level" type of response, but I think that you might be just a touch guilty of that in this case. I respect your opinion. I think that you should respect Juulie's opinion also, even if you don't agree with it.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Mar 7th, 2004 at 02:37 AM]

[Rich]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Do this in a varsity game and within 24 hours you'll be talking to your assignor and the state office about why you had to run a coach. And everyone will wonder why you allowed a team to score an uncontested basket. And it will come back on you.

Maybe not everywhere, but that's my instinct.

[/B]

I think that you got one thing right. The "not everywhere" part at the last.

Rich, I may agree with your point of view. Maybe not all of it, but most of it. What I don't agree with is you trying to justify your opinion over someone else's opinion by making blanket statements alluding that assignors, state offices, and "everyone" in the world automatically agrees with your opinion. I mean "everyone will wonder"? That just ain't so. Other responses in this thread have already proved that wrong. Usually you're not the type of poster that tries to back their own opinion by using the old "don't call that or you'll never make it to a higher level" type of response, but I think that you might be just a touch guilty of that in this case. I respect your opinion. I think that you should respect Juulie's opinion also, even if you don't agree with it.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Mar 7th, 2004 at 02:37 AM] [/B][/QUOTE]


That's why I qualified my remarks with "maybe not everywhere" and said that is was MY instinct.

I'm certainly not trying to be heavy handed. I'm just hypothetically putting myself into the position of the assignor or the state office and it's doubtful that, even as a working official, I would back an official on making that decision, even though it is well supported by the rules.

I would ask -- exactly what did you do to prevent the situation from occurring?

Going back to continue making a pot of gumbo with these heavy hands

--Rich

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
[/B]

I would ask -- exactly what did you do to prevent the situation from occurring?

[/B][/QUOTE]Know what, Rich? I don't know whether we really can prevent these situations from coming up. Some coaches just get so involved that they don't just don't know when they're supposed to get their kids back out there. I certainly agree that you don't want to be heavy-handed out there, and call this one right by the book. But, I don't think that you can really make a hard and fast rule that you're never going to call it either. Jmo, but I think that you have to almost look at every case before you make up your mind how to handle it. If I think that someone's getting an advantage out of taking some extra time that they're not entitled to, then, yes, I'd probably do something about it. It does bother me to see 5 players from one team out on the floor, all set to go, and the other coach keeping them waiting. Might sound wishy/washy, but I just think that there's too many variables(score,time left,warnings,etc) involved to say that I'd always handle these types of situations one particular way or another.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I would ask -- exactly what did you do to prevent the situation from occurring?

[/B]

Know what, Rich? I don't know whether we really can prevent these situations from coming up. Some coaches just get so involved that they don't just don't know when they're supposed to get their kids back out there. I certainly agree that you don't want to be heavy-handed out there, and call this one right by the book. But, I don't think that you can really make a hard and fast rule that you're never going to call it either. Jmo, but I think that you have to almost look at every case before you make up your mind how to handle it. If I think that someone's getting an advantage out of taking some extra time that they're not entitled to, then, yes, I'd probably do something about it. It does bother me to see 5 players from one team out on the floor, all set to go, and the other coach keeping them waiting. Might sound wishy/washy, but I just think that there's too many variables(score,time left,warnings,etc) involved to say that I'd always handle these types of situations one particular way or another. [/B][/QUOTE]

Agreed.

I also remember a part of this thread where someone mentioned a technical and we talked about how we had to have a violation first (via the resumption-of-play procedure).

I immediately thought -- well, that's not true in ALL cases....I mean, if I walked over and tried to get a team out of the huddle and the coach swore at me, we'd have a technical, but not for delaying the game at that point.

I simply haven't run into any of those issues since moving out of the subvarsity level. Teams come out --- not always at the same time, but close enough. The only problem I had at the varsity level was a team who wanted to use its last time out (full time out) for subs and then demanded that I end the timeout since the calling team was ready. Umm, not in NFHS ball, and I almost had to whack the coach over it.

I respect Juulie's opinions and I'm not saying she couldn't do exactly what she recommended where she lives -- I'm just saying that anyone reading her post should recognize that in some places it may lead to some unpleasantries for the officials.

--Rich

[JRutledge]

"you can be right and dead at the same time. "

Now when she used to say this, she was talking about crossing the street or dealing with the cops or getting in a fight. She was not talking about officiating of course. But the statement is to illustrate that you can do everything the rules say, but you might suffer the consequences of the powers that be. And if you do things to the letter, without using common sense (might vary from area), not sure I know if it is worth it to use this procedure.

I am not saying Juulie is wrong or right, just saying you better be sure what the acceptable practices are in your area. Because I know that in some conferences no one would bat an eye if I did this, and some would be perturbed if I did this. So you have to know where you are at, when you do certain things.

Peace

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

There is no regionally accepted way to handle this situation, the only correct way is to handle it as described in the Rules and Casebook Plays.

Either the official handles the play correctly or he does not. There is no regionally accepted way to handle the situation only the correct way. I do not wish to sound like a hard tuchus, but if an official is afraid of being taken to the woodshed for doing what is correct, then maybe that official should not be officiating.

I personally rather defend myself for doing the correct thing, rathier that trying to defend myself for doing the incorrect thing.

MTD, Sr.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
There is no regionally accepted way to handle this situation, the only correct way is to handle it as described in the Rules and Casebook Plays.

This is completely and absolutely wrong. Period.

Regional differences exist in just about every facet of the high school game. Take this from a guy who has officiated and lived in six states since 1994.

Not learning and refusing to adhere to regional differences can slow down or completely derail an officiating career.

--Rich

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

This is completely and absolutely wrong. Period.

Regional differences exist in just about every facet of the high school game. Take this from a guy who has officiated and lived in six states since 1994.

Not learning and refusing to adhere to regional differences can slow down or completely derail an officiating career.

--Rich

Rich:

I have been registered as a basketball official with the OhioHSAA for 32 years, during that time I officiated basketball four years as a registered FloridaHSAA official official, two years with the Southern California Bkb. Off. Assn. (to officiate CIF games in Los Angeles one had to be a member of the SCBOA), and twenty years as a MichiganHSAA offical. Since 1993, I have officiated over thirty AAU and YBOA national tournaments with H.S. officials from California, Connecticut, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Louisanna, Massachusetts, New York, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Texas, and Virginia, as well one official from Poland and one official from Brazil.

I will grant you that there are groups of officials that do not want the handle certain situations per the rules because there are certain areas of the country where coaches exert undue influence upon officials but that is no excuse for doing the correct thing.

I have found that the officials handle the difficult situations the correct way rather that following the herd will always rise to the top because there are always people knowledgeable in the correct application of the rules and mechanics.

And while there were always officials in the groups to which I belonged that did not want to make waves with coaches the vast majority of officials with whom I have officiatecd H.S. basketball were interested in doing it correctly. Especially at the national level of AAU and YBOA tournaments, the officials that officiate in these tournaments are there because they do things the correct way rather than following the herd.

I have probably stepped on some toes with this post but so be it. I hope that no matter what everybody has had a good season.

MTD, Sr.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.


I personally rather defend myself for doing the correct thing, rathier that trying to defend myself for doing the incorrect thing.

MTD, Sr.

So Mark...what evil, vile and misguided sins against the gods of basketball have I committed when I wait a few seconds for my partner to drag a team out of their huddle after the second horn of a timeout? There must be some concrete charges against me, since we're now discussing the need for me to to defend myself.

Do enlighten us.