"...poor game management...."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by TPS2859

You also have the option of not putting the ball in play, but walking over and giving the coach a delay of game with a T to fallow if he does this again.

You don't have that option if you're following the rulebook. The only time that you can give a "T" out in the "resumption of play" procedure is if you have already called a violation on that team while using that procedure, and they then continue to delay. A "warning" is not part of the procedure.

[stan-MI]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Now that may seem harsh, but I have never had to put the ball down more than once in any game, and I will only do it early. If there is 2 minutes to play, I'm not going to hose somebody.

Well said, although I probably would not put the ball on the floor for the entire fourth quarter of a close game. One thing I do, if a team isn't breaking its huddle soon after the first horn, I'll say loudly, "Be ready to play on the second horn."

[DJ]

First horn goes off, we give the warning, the team doesn't break so we give them a warning that the next time they don't break we will put the ball down and the next time we put the ball down. Sounds like it is very fair and we are working with the coach but he is not working with us. If he is mad at me for putting the ball down, so be it!

[TPS2859]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
[/B]

The only time that you can give a "T" out in the "resumption of play" procedure is if you have already called a violation on that team while using that procedure, and they then continue to delay.


I think thats what I said.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by just another ref
JV boys game. Team A (visitors) ball out of bounds backcourt endline. Timeout Team A. 45 second horn Team B breaks huddle. Team A no movement. Partner: first horn, let's go Team A. Second horn. No movement from Team A. Tweet, let's go Team A. No movement. Pause..... ball on floor..1,2,3,4,5,...Tweet, B's ball. A is just breaking the huddle. A's coach: (totally mystified) What? It was our ball before the timeout! Me: Yes, and after two horns, a whistle, and a count of five, now it's their ball. (paraphrased) He shakes his head and sits down.
The next week I was at School A doing varsity. There's an older guy that is at all of School A's games, I think he is their former coach, now retired. I was exchanging a brief word with this guy when he said, "Oh, by the way, if I had been evaluating you guys the other night at the JV, you would have gotten a negative mark for the way you handled that timeout situation."

Your opinion is duly noted, sir.

From your post, you handled the timeout situation just fine. As far at the old coach, I would have politely told him that before he gives a negative evaluation, he should now what are the rules and mechanics for a resuming play situation after a timeout.

The problem with old coaches and coaches in general is that their word about the rules carries an amount of credibility with fans, players, and the press, which is completely opposite to their knowledge of the rules.

Far too many times I have had conversations with fans in a no officiating setting that will flat out tell me that a coach always knows the rules better that everybody else because he is a basketball coach. Such logic just boggles the mind.

[ace]

*first horn*
"Lets got gentleman (or ladies) 1st horn"
*count 5 seconds to myself*
"Ok gentleman lets break the huddle" *clap hands twice
*look at clock - if its at zero or reverted to the game clock*
"Gentleman your time has expired, lets break the huddle now fellas."
*count 2 seconds*
*tweet whistle and indicated to partner its time to play*

Usually odnt have to get past the clap. The last night of camp this past summer the camp host called me a bulldog cuz I wouldnt relent until a huddle breaked. I told one huddle , "Gentleman dont make me come in there to get yall" got a laugh from a player and broken huddle.

[Rich]

Originally posted by ace
*first horn*
"Lets got gentleman (or ladies) 1st horn"
*count 5 seconds to myself*
"Ok gentleman lets break the huddle" *clap hands twice
*look at clock - if its at zero or reverted to the game clock*
"Gentleman your time has expired, lets break the huddle now fellas."
*count 2 seconds*
*tweet whistle and indicated to partner its time to play*

Usually odnt have to get past the clap. The last night of camp this past summer the camp host called me a bulldog cuz I wouldnt relent until a huddle breaked. I told one huddle , "Gentleman dont make me come in there to get yall" got a laugh from a player and broken huddle.

Why would you bother them between the first horn and the second horn? That's still part of the timeout and I think the coach is entitled to use that time without an official getting on his case.

Notify the team that the first horn has gone off and step back out of their way.

--Rich

[missinglink]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

I agree with this. Someone needs to aggressively DRAG the team out onto the floor. It can be done, and it can be done in a graceful manner. Putting the ball on the floor should be the very, very last resort.

Last resort for sure and putting the ball down is often the catalyst that takes a coach out of his game......I don't think it bothers the players that much. At FROSH and lower, coaches are always trying to stuff 90 seconds of instruction into a 30.....At this level my pre-game conference always includes a statement and a coaches' head nod that teams MUST be ready to play at the second horn. If you are going to put the ball down, do it early and if you haven't done it early, live with the delay the rest of the game.

[DJ]

If putting the ball down after patiently trying to work with a coach to get his players out of the huddle after all that has been noted here ruins the relationship that you have with a coach then you did not have a relationship with that coach in the first place. He is flat out taking advantage of a situation to which he is not entitled. That is why we have a first and second horn. As long as you warn a coach that the next time they are not ready you are entitiled to put the ball down no questions asked. Ruin a relationship? What relationship?

[RefSouthAlb]

I sometimes cover this in the captains meeting before the game saying to the captain the after the first horn teams need to break and be ready to play by second horn. I ask him to go back and let his coach know.

That way everyone is reminded before the game even starts. If it happens in the game once I grab the captain and indicate to him that the ball will be put into play after the second whistle on the next time out. It's his responsibilty get his players out. Make sure your coach is aware.

HAven't had a problem yet happy to say. Never had to put the ball down and start a count.

[Rich]

Originally posted by DJ
If putting the ball down after patiently trying to work with a coach to get his players out of the huddle after all that has been noted here ruins the relationship that you have with a coach then you did not have a relationship with that coach in the first place. He is flat out taking advantage of a situation to which he is not entitled. That is why we have a first and second horn. As long as you warn a coach that the next time they are not ready you are entitiled to put the ball down no questions asked. Ruin a relationship? What relationship?

I have never had a coach get to the point where I felt the need to put the ball down, at least not at the varsity level -- which is what I normally work.

Then again, I *am* pretty liberal with a timeout. I wait until both teams are comfortably at their benches before starting the timeout clock, telling the timer during the pregame meeting that it doesn't start until I tell him/her and that I will usually wait until the teams are in their huddles to start. I step in and announce the first horn, usually getting the attention of the assistants. Then, if I'm the official off ball and the team hasn't broken by the second horn, I'll walk in the huddle and get them moving.

Never felt that I was being taken advantage of. I've also never told them to be ready to play on the second horn, either -- I think that's bush league and makes us look like we're in some kind of a big hurry. Games can end in 1:10, including halftime -- what's the rush?

If I felt that a coach had taken advantage of a timeout, I would take the time to talk to the coach about it. If he repeated the behavior, then I guess I would put the ball on the floor. But I'm not going there unless I feel like I'm put in that corner -- and likely the coach and I would've had a brief chat about it first.

Sure, putting the ball down shows the coach who's in charge and tells the coach to "speed things up." But does it make the game better for you, for them, and for the players?

[tomegun]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
I have never had a coach get to the point where I felt the need to put the ball down, at least not at the varsity level -- which is what I normally work.

Then again, I *am* pretty liberal with a timeout. I wait until both teams are comfortably at their benches before starting the timeout clock, telling the timer during the pregame meeting that it doesn't start until I tell him/her and that I will usually wait until the teams are in their huddles to start. I step in and announce the first horn, usually getting the attention of the assistants. Then, if I'm the official off ball and the team hasn't broken by the second horn, I'll walk in the huddle and get them moving.

Never felt that I was being taken advantage of. I've also never told them to be ready to play on the second horn, either -- I think that's bush league and makes us look like we're in some kind of a big hurry. Games can end in 1:10, including halftime -- what's the rush?

If I felt that a coach had taken advantage of a timeout, I would take the time to talk to the coach about it. If he repeated the behavior, then I guess I would put the ball on the floor. But I'm not going there unless I feel like I'm put in that corner -- and likely the coach and I would've had a brief chat about it first.

Sure, putting the ball down shows the coach who's in charge and tells the coach to "speed things up." But does it make the game better for you, for them, and for the players?
[/B]

These are some great comments. Also, if this is a problem there is nothing wrong with asking the coach, at the appropriate time, "coach, can you get them out a little quicker?" Most coaches will not have a problem with that because the don't mind the communication. It is sort of telling them how you feel without a threat. If a coach has a problem with this communication he/she has other problems too.

[icallfouls]

It is certainly good advice that has been offered here.

Now, let me put it to you all a bit differently.

We are now into conference play. Some teams have been bending this rule all season long and as a result get an extra 5-10 seconds on most of the timeouts during the season. The officials have been leanient in getting the procrastinating coach/team ready for play. By the way, unless there is a first time coach, who never played, and has never been to a game, knows what the rule is and by taking extra time is gaining an advantage by getting that extra bit of coaching time.

We now have the team that procrastinates playing a team that knows what their responsibility is. The coach/team is ready for play to begin but are kept waiting by this offending team. The coach starts grumbling, rightfully so, that they are ready to play, why are we still waiting?

If some official places the ball on the floor for this team just one time, they will be less likely to delay in the future. I guarantee you that the players will start moving. The officials that follow you will have one less problem to worry about and will thank you.

With all that said, I don't suggest putting the ball down in the closing minutes of a close game if it hasn't already been done.

[Rich]

Originally posted by icallfouls
It is certainly good advice that has been offered here.

Now, let me put it to you all a bit differently.

We are now into conference play. Some teams have been bending this rule all season long and as a result get an extra 5-10 seconds on most of the timeouts during the season. The officials have been leanient in getting the procrastinating coach/team ready for play. By the way, unless there is a first time coach, who never played, and has never been to a game, knows what the rule is and by taking extra time is gaining an advantage by getting that extra bit of coaching time.

We now have the team that procrastinates playing a team that knows what their responsibility is. The coach/team is ready for play to begin but are kept waiting by this offending team. The coach starts grumbling, rightfully so, that they are ready to play, why are we still waiting?

If some official places the ball on the floor for this team just one time, they will be less likely to delay in the future. I guarantee you that the players will start moving. The officials that follow you will have one less problem to worry about and will thank you.

With all that said, I don't suggest putting the ball down in the closing minutes of a close game if it hasn't already been done.

Why not? If the first time a team delays is with 30 seconds left in a tie game, those who advocate putting the ball down should do it here, too.

Sorry if I sound self-centered, but I am unconcerned with future officials and crews. I expect those officials to have some common sense, too, I guess. If one team is ready for play and the other one isn't, there are other alternatives to putting the ball on the floor and counting -- communication being the number one alternative.

A great majority of varsity coaches know the rules and know their jobs. They will respect an official that will come over and talk and request that the team come out a little quicker. If the other coach complains, I would simply explain that he would receive the same courtesy and that would be the end of it in most cases.

Putting the ball down on the floor on the second horn without making an effort shows (to me, and I recognize that some disagree) that you know the rules very well, but aren't interested in preventing situations. And are more interested in showing people who are in charge than in working the game for the teams. And just about every time I've seen an official put the ball on the floor, the rapport between the officials and the coach of the team late in coming out goes south in a hurry.

Here's a serious question for those of you willing to put it on the floor: If the team delaying in coming out was the DEFENSIVE team, would you be as quick to hand it to A for an easy, uncontested basket? Why or why not?

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Standing at the appropriate location on the court...

First horn goes off. I raise, and hold, one finger - I'm not yelling anything because no one is listening.

I wait 5-10 seconds and begin my walk towards the huddle. As the second horn sounds, or possibly a couple of second before, I clap my hands and from 5- 10 feet away, say loudly towards the huddle (I never stick my head into the coach's huddle) "White ball coming in on the sideline." or "Red ball coming this way." etc.

Rarely do I have to do any more coaxing than that. I will allow a short delay of maybe 5 seconds and even with that I will be telling the players as they break "Hurry up white; it is your ball." or allow the team that is ready, to pass it in as the other team is scrambling to get get positions.

I do everything I reasonably can to get them out and I still am willing to penalize the sluggards (defense) if they have delayed and then wander out of the huddle lost and confused. "Here we go!" and give the offense the ball to get the game going.

Oooh well don't have to worry about that until next season.