It's amazing how a T can change the game

[JRutledge]

How about that both teams or at least on team made adjustments. When you make adjustments, the game cannot and will not be called the same. I have been officiating for a bit of time and when teams make adjustments, you cannot just call the game to even up fouls. For example, if a team is settling for jump shots in the first half then they are attacking the basket in the second half, it is possible that the fouls will be different in the second half. Just that simple. Good coaches realize this. Because I always find it funny when coaches complain that they are getting hosed on fouls, when they are not being aggressive and just shooting all day from the outside. Fouls come from contact and it does not come from shooting 3 pointers. Maybe that was the reason. But I was not there, you were coach.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ref18

This is probably gonna be one of those threads that goes on for 17 pages before it gets deleted or closed.

Only if the BoSox fans out there keep fulfilling their masochistic tendencies. Most of the rest of us have figured out what Dumbo the Coach is up to, and just ignore him.

[Damian]

To honesty answer your question, yes a T can sometimes change things. I will not speak of integrity, but I have seen situations where officials have given a T to a complaining coach, realize he had a legitimate gripe, and cut him a little slack in the second half. But I am talking a little slack. I am not referring to the turnaround you were talking about. The turnaround can be traced more to the attitude of the offending (or offended coach more than a break every now and then.

The times I have seen this is mostly with newer officials, but I have seen it happen with veterans. It is usually the partner that notices an injustice.

I would bet that many of the people on this forum have seen this happen too. So rather than fill your replies with hipocrasy, answer the question. Has you ever seen this or not?

I also have seen many replies to this person that indicate that they do not like him or his attacks on officials. I welcome them all.

In dealing with the public like we do, we get all kinds. This forum has served me well to personally deal with some of the replies that are mostly self serving, often having nothing to do with the original question, and often right on target and have helped me become a better official. So embrace the question, deal with it, reply if you must, and learn from the personality of the person that set it up.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Damian

I would bet that many of the people on this forum have seen this happen too. So rather than fill your replies with hipocrasy, answer the question. Has you ever seen this or not?

No I have not. I will never say it has not happen, but I do not work with many officials that give a damn what coaches think. At least in my area, the well known or powerful officials could care less of what coaches think. For one, many might be lucky that he sees a particular coach for a few years in many cases. Coaches come and go, they replace coaches every year. Officials stick around much longer. And most officials realize that to some extent.

Originally posted by Damian
I also have seen many replies to this person that indicate that they do not like him or his attacks on officials. I welcome them all.

No, we do not like this individual because he is always coming here and complaining and then questioning the responses. He has a right to post of course, but if you want the answer to a question, do not be surprised if those responses are not to your liking.

Originally posted by Damian
In dealing with the public like we do, we get all kinds. This forum has served me well to personally deal with some of the replies that are mostly self serving, often having nothing to do with the original question, and often right on target and have helped me become a better official. So embrace the question, deal with it, reply if you must, and learn from the personality of the person that set it up.

Many of us have embraced the question. But many of us have not seen officials purposely undermine a coach. Now we are human beings and we are capable of holding gruges, but that does not mean it affects the way we call the game. And those that do, do not stick around very long. But if this is not a varsity or above game, then you might get officials that are not capable to let the critisism roll off their backs. But usually in my experience the officials that have achieved the varsity level, are rather capable of making a call and moving on. But that is my experience, I am sure there are experiences outside of what I have been through.

Peace

[reffish]

In response to the coach's question, no one in this forum can answer you. None of us were there, so we can not tell you why your game was called the way it was called. You can ask the officials for that game, but not us. We don't know why the fouls were the way you say. I can not also say that your comment that brought the T was or was not justified. You got the T and the game went on. I think that this forum is used to interpret the rules that we are to follow. That is it. We can not comment on your game and how you were dealt with. We can't, we weren't there.

[chayce]

Coach, my biggest pet peeve regarding high school coaches is that they constantly bring up the foul disparity. Keep two things in mind:

1. There is no rule requiring foul calls to be equal.
2. If you have a specific question/comment about a specific play, then ask it. Otherwise don't comment on the foul count.

I have found that coaches at the college level rarely bring it up because they understand that the foul call differential is truly a result of a legitimate foul differential. May I suggest that your time in any game is much better spent coaching your kids than harassing an official regarding the foul differential. Best wishes.

[Rich]

Originally posted by chayce
Coach, my biggest pet peeve regarding high school coaches is that they constantly bring up the foul disparity. Keep two things in mind:

1. There is no rule requiring foul calls to be equal.
2. If you have a specific question/comment about a specific play, then ask it. Otherwise don't comment on the foul count.

I have found that coaches at the college level rarely bring it up because they understand that the foul call differential is truly a result of a legitimate foul differential. May I suggest that your time in any game is much better spent coaching your kids than harassing an official regarding the foul differential. Best wishes.

I had a game a few weeks ago where the second half started with the home team committing the first eight fouls. I didn't even notice the foul count until we hit six, to be honest.

Of course, that was because the home coach started in on the "disparity." My only feeling about those situations is that you better be darned sure you don't MISS one against the visiting team unless you really want to have to throw a technical or two. But I try not to miss any at either end of the floor, so it's not like the game changes for me. I just remind myself to maintain focus and continue to do the job.

[rcwilco]

No I have never seen nor have I ever had a partner even up the count because of a coaches comments. I give very few T's but questioning my integrity is one of the few direct routes to get there. If you have more fouls than the other team, then your team has fouled more. Sweet and simple. If I have a coach who has not been ranting and raving, and makes a professional request or statement when I am trail near the bench, I will acknowledge and even make sure that I am positioned properly because I just might be missing something. BUT I do not call fouls because he has a T or calls for one!

[SMEngmann]

I'm surprised that nobody has noted the subtext of what BBCoach is saying. His team got up 14-0. Obviously at that point he wasn't complaining about the officiating. I have yet to see a coach with such fast start whine to the refs. At some point, the opposing team went on a run and BBCoach, by his own admission, blamed the refs for it and did it vocally. The result: his lead evaporated and he was given a T. After the T, he presumably behaved himself and his team righted the ship and went on to win the game. BBCoach should be thanking the officials for the T which forced him to shift focus to coaching from the refs.

This exact storyline is typical for many games, particularly sub-varsity games where the players are more emotional and less in control. The coach has a tremendous amount of control over the reactions of parents and players. Most average teams will take any excuse for failure that you give them, and blaming the refs is tantamount to giving players excuses for failure. I've noticed that when the coach is BSing about our calls that I'm more likely to have a player whine about being fouled after a missed shot when it is evident that there was no contact than if the coach is not whining. Many players are looking for excuses for failure and coaches give them that excuse by accusing the refs of cheating, like you did BBCoach. The more a coach complains, often the worse his team plays. That's why "working the refs" usually backfires and it's also probably why your team gave up a huge lead. COACH AND TEACH THE PLAYERS. It is the job of every coach to teach his/her players to focus only on what they can control. No matter what you think, you can't control the refs.

By the way: The comment about, "Who's paying you" could land you a flagrant T with some officials I know.

[just another ref]

The discussion here is about psychology. The theory here is that if the coach complains enough, whether he picks up the T or not, the officials will subconsciously give him some calls to pacify him and shut him up. Conversely, if after his antics the coach continues to see calls that he perceives as negative to his cause or even worse than before, the theory then is that the coaches actions annoyed the officials to the point that they subconsciously (or consciously) called against his team. Do these theories have merit? Perhaps they do sometimes. But no two officials and no two games (or portions of a game) are alike. So, coach, just when you think you have figured out the right angle it is always subject to blow up in your face. Try rubbing your lucky rabbits foot when things go bad. If this doesn't work you don't have to tell anybody and you don't risk being ejected.

[SMEngmann]

The whole discussion about injustice is ridiculous in my mind. If an official makes a bad call, is it a bad call, or is it an injustice. An injustice requires a remedy, a "bad call" is part of the game. As officials, we cannot try to correct bad calls, or perceived injustices because doing so only results in more bad calls. Nothing worse, in my opinion than the phantom travel call right after the controversial call that went the other way. Officials who do this show no respect to the game, or their partner, especially if their partner made the first controversial call.

As for the psychological part of "working the refs" I've reviewed my game to see how a coach's comments about not getting the calls affected me, and I've concluded that they have no effect. I am too focused on a specific play to think about how the calls have gone to this point. A foul is a foul, a violation is a violation no matter who commits it. That's one reason why I can't understand guys who try to "make the 5th foul a good one" because doing so forces you to change standards midstream, something that I cannot do and still officiate effectively. If a coach is screaming at me about whatever, it goes in one ear and out the other, unless it gets personal or it otherwise meets the standards of a T.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by SMEngmann
That's one reason why I can't understand guys who try to "make the 5th foul a good one" because doing so forces you to change standards midstream, something that I cannot do and still officiate effectively.

I subscribe to that philosophy, but it has nothing to do with the coach getting on me at that moment. It has more to do with the fact that when they go look at the tape, the call will probably be reviewed much more closely than the other fouls. For me, it does not change anything I do, it just keeps me focused. It does not mean I am doing anything different from one end of the game, I just would rather call fouls at that stage of the game that are believable. Even if I have not been doing so the rest of the game.

Peace

[rainmaker]

Are there bad refs out there? Of course there are.

Are there bad coaches? You bet.

My experience is that in general, though not always, they go together.

So if someone thinks the refs are lousy, they'd better look to their own coach and players. If someone thinks the coaches are crummy, they should examine their own calls and mechanics.

Example, I am a varsity official this year, and I got a pretty good schedule. I've had a lot of fun, interesting games, and not much trouble with coaches. But this weekend I did a friend a favor and picked up a couple of Jr Hi games on Sunday afternoon. It was simply a nightmare. The coaches were loud and obnoxious, and they didn't know rules or mechanics. The parents were vile. My partner and I did a pretty good job overall, but on the drive home, I had to stop and ask myself a few questions. I saw some things I could have done differently that might have calmed things down a little, might have given the coaches a little more confidence in me. I'm not saying it was all my fault. I've had a lot of trouble in this league in the past, and in general I avoid it. But there were some techniques I didnt try in talking to the coaches, and managing the game in general, that might have helped a little.

The secret here is to acknowledge my own weaknesses and shortcomings. BBallCoach, I suggest that if you are getting lousy refs over and over again, game after game after game, you examine your own coaching and figure out how to move up to a higher level where the refs are more skilled and more experienced.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by BBallCoach
but I don't know how else you explain the foul difference from me getting no calls to me expressing myself to the official getting the T and then I got every single call in the second half.

Coincidentally, I spent a few minutes last night trying to train my daughter to flip a quarter to always come up "heads".

After she flipped it a few times, I noticed that it had come up "tails" 12 times and "heads" only 3 times. So I yelled at her.

She yelled back, and then flipped the coin a few more times -- 16 "heads" and only 4 "tails." It must be that my yelling worked.

[Hawks Coach]

Coach
You completely change defenses and then wonder about the foul count changing in your favor. Instead of patting yourself on the back for doing your job (adjusting to the game) you decide to make it seem as though you won only because the refs gave you some fouls after you complained. Bizarre at best.

And for those who think zones protect players from fouls, I have often seen teams (mine included) that deny the ball well in man, but miss assignments in zones and pick up cheap fouls for late reactions to the ball. So I am willing to believe that your change saved your team, not some change in attitude you fostered in the refferees.

But then again, it was probably your great manner of handling referees that got you the game. Too bad you couldn't win it by coaching your players to be the better team on the floor that day.