Advantage/Disadvantage talk is making me nervous

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by theboys
I tread pretty lightly on this site because I know I'm not as rule savvy as most of you, and I know this site isn't really for non-refs, but for those of you who wonder why you don't get more respect, you need to look at the other side of the a/d argument, from a coach's or fan's perspective. Because a/d does have a dark side.

I've been a part of games where "incidental" contact escalates until, basically, the game gets out of control. Incidental contact becomes hard fouls, and by the time the officials start calling fouls, frustration and anger have reached a boiling point. I'm not whining about my team - we've been on the offending side as much as we've been on the offended side.

And, you're right, not all contact is a foul, but if you're not going to be consistent with your calls, or you're not going to establish ahead of time a line beyond which everything is a foul, you set yourself up for failure. If someone slaps a passer on the arm, it shouldn't matter whether the pass was successful or not in your decision to call a foul.

As for the three second call, I think not making the call is a cop-out. If you call it a couple of times, players will wise up. Or, they'll be taken out of the game.

If a player bringing in the ball uncontested picks it up, and just walks with it under his arm to half court, where the defense is waiting in a passive zone, do you call the travel? The ball handler isn't gaining an advantage. But, its a violation, so you call it. Three seconds in the lane is a violation - call it.

Coach -- You're right, and right to point it out. A/D should be applied only on the borderline calls, and doesn't matter on the hard foul, regardless of the situation. And we should keep saying that, because when we don't some newer or dizzyer refs will think we've got a rule about it like soccer, and let everything get out of hand.

I do want to make one little distinction, though, in what you said. The slap on the passer's arm, whether the pass makes it or not, may actually NOT be a foul at all if it's on the hand which is still in contact with the ball. I know YOU know that rule, but for the fans out there reading this, I just want to clarify that when the hand is in contact with the ball it's fair game. A slap can sound pretty bad, and still not be a foul.

and btw, you are one of very few coaches in this country who don't fall under the blanket criticism we often give. You try hard to improve your knowledge of the game, and the rules, and you are humble and open-minded when you are corrected. We could all learn a lesson from you.

Besides, you have a truly great signature line!

[footlocker]

i like advantage/disadvantage.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by theboys
I tread pretty lightly on this site because I know I'm not as rule savvy as most of you, and I know this site isn't really for non-refs, but for those of you who wonder why you don't get more respect, you need to look at the other side of the a/d argument, from a coach's or fan's perspective. Because a/d does have a dark side.

I've been a part of games where "incidental" contact escalates until, basically, the game gets out of control. Incidental contact becomes hard fouls, and by the time the officials start calling fouls, frustration and anger have reached a boiling point. I'm not whining about my team - we've been on the offending side as much as we've been on the offended side.

The only problem with A/D, is that folks do not understand it. There is no dark side to it at all. You cannot call a foul on a bigger player because the smaller player just runs into him and bounces off. The defense is allowed to play too, and many think if there is any contact with the ball handler, you should call a foul. Contact can be severe and no foul. I do not care if someone gets frustrated, that is there problem. The game should be called that way, and the rules back this up.

Originally posted by theboys
And, you're right, not all contact is a foul, but if you're not going to be consistent with your calls, or you're not going to establish ahead of time a line beyond which everything is a foul, you set yourself up for failure. If someone slaps a passer on the arm, it shouldn't matter whether the pass was successful or not in your decision to call a foul.

Well I categorically disagree with that. Because just because you get slapped on the arm is not a justification for a foul. Because if you are allowed to follow thru on your pass and you make slight contact on the arm, I am not taking back a layup for a foul that had no affect on the play at all. No different if a dribbler tries to split two defenders that are just standing there basically. It would be totally inproper to call a foul on the defenders because the dribbler made a bad decision. Of course there are officials that would call a foul, but that does not make it right.

Originally posted by theboys
As for the three second call, I think not making the call is a cop-out. If you call it a couple of times, players will wise up. Or, they'll be taken out of the game.

Well that would be great, but it has to be there. Most of the time people are complaining about 3 seconds when the rules do not allow that call. The higher you go up, the more you do not see a player in the lane. Players like driving to the lane, not playing with their back to the basket anymore. With all the motion offenses, you see it even less.

Originally posted by theboys
If a player bringing in the ball uncontested picks it up, and just walks with it under his arm to half court, where the defense is waiting in a passive zone, do you call the travel? The ball handler isn't gaining an advantage. But, its a violation, so you call it. Three seconds in the lane is a violation - call it.

I have called that. And who says the dribbler is not gaining an advantage? If you have to travel to make a uncontested layup, you gained an advantage. And if you call a travel in that situation, it was probably obvious to most in the building. But then again, that is my opinion. And I have heard that some officials here do not call that, but I have yet to run into officials that have shared that philosophy. Now the problem with traveling, is that most coaches and fans do not know when it takes place. And I know many coaches that seemed to have never heard of a jump stop. Especially those schools that claim they are fundamental, when they play those "urban" teams where every player uses the jump stop to some extent. But 3 seconds starts and ends so fast, most do not even know when we have started another count.

Peace

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by dblref

Unbelievable! You are averaging 3-4 games a day, every day. How do you keep your mental focus? Not to mention the physical wear and tear on your feet/legs. I do a lot of games during the hs season and rec ball other times, but nowhere near this many. [/B]

Like I said I've cut it down,that was a terrible 2 months.
I was off a couple of days for the 4th of July and I almost died the first game back because I did nothing for 2 days!

I know it is time to recharge when I start giving a lot of T's.I can't recommend working that much for everyone,but I've had most screwy things happen in rec league games and if you can handle a prima donna ex pro player in a man's league there is no player or coach in high school that can bother you.

[WindyCityRef]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Well I categorically disagree with that. Because just because you get slapped on the arm is not a justification for a foul. Because if you are allowed to follow thru on your pass and you make slight contact on the arm, I am not taking back a layup for a foul that had no affect on the play at all. No different if a dribbler tries to split two defenders that are just standing there basically. It would be totally inproper to call a foul on the defenders because the dribbler made a bad decision. Of course there are officials that would call a foul, but that does not make it right.

Peace [/B]

I don't agree that just because someone makes a layup that you shouldn't call the foul. Maybe the defender wants to foul that player before he can make an easy layup. If you don't call that foul, then maybe the next time down the defender fouls the offensive player harder.

Sorry, a foul is a foul, and sometimes the defense will gain an advantage by committing a foul.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by WindyCityRef

I don't agree that just because someone makes a layup that you shouldn't call the foul. Maybe the defender wants to foul that player before he can make an easy layup. If you don't call that foul, then maybe the next time down the defender fouls the offensive player harder.

Sorry, a foul is a foul, and sometimes the defense will gain an advantage by committing a foul. [/B]

If the defender wants to foul to stop a lay up you have an intentional foul situation.If the contact does not stop the offensive player I have a no call,if it is as you say,"Harder next time," I have an intentional foul.

You NEVER want to reward bad defense.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityRef
I don't agree that just because someone makes a layup that you shouldn't call the foul. Maybe the defender wants to foul that player before he can make an easy layup. If you don't call that foul, then maybe the next time down the defender fouls the offensive player harder.

Not sure you point here. I am not talking about at the end of a game. I am talking about just during normal play. And all slaps on the are are not hard, nor are they purposeful. So if you have a player touch another player's arm, not sure why you would automatically call a foul? But then again, I was always under the impression that basketball was a contact sport and there is going to be some contact from time to time. But then again, many folks seem to think all contact is a foul, you seem to be one of those people that feel that way.

Originally posted by WindyCityRef
Sorry, a foul is a foul, and sometimes the defense will gain an advantage by committing a foul.

Not sure what that means. Because fouls are based on how the contact affected the play, not the severity of any contact. And I know you do not hear that from officials in the Windy City. You might here what is a foul at the college level is a foul at the HS level, but all contact does not constitute fouls. If it did not, the rulebook would not address that very thing.

Peace

[davidw]

Judgement, Judgement, Judgement.

Every case should be about Judgement. And every case/situation is taken in context. Context of that total play, the play before it, the last time up or down the court and the entire game. What is called at one point and in one game may indeed be called something different at another point or in another game.

For example: I may pass on some slight contact that IMO, did not affect the play, but at another time or game, call it because IMO, I noticed players' level of frustration beginning to rise and IMO, I need to 'rein it in'--now I 'gotta call this one'. I try and let the players establish the tempo. If they do that and we gain a flow to the game, that is what we are all seeking. If they don't then they have turned it over to us, now we have to. I believe the top officials are able to distinguish early on when those times are and are able to make adjustments timely (ie. before things even get close to getting out of control).

That, IMO, is one of the keys that sets top officials apart from those who are not: Judgement, judgement, judgement!

[Malcolm Tucker]

Originally posted by Jay R
The FIBA rulebook now has advantage/disadvantage as part of its fouls AND violations. NF and NCAA do not make it official, but refs use adv/disadv. in many instances and I believe that it's for the better in most cases.

Actually although FIBA has ad/disad in fouls it does not go that far for violations.

What it does say have a feeling for the game. In other words do not "nitpick"

[WindyCityRef]

You said 'slapped' on the arm. I'm thinking a slap and a touch on the arm are two different things.

I'm not saying 'all' contact is a foul, I'm just reading to much into your words maybe.

If I see/hear a kid getting slapped on the arm, I'm going to call it.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityRef
You said 'slapped' on the arm. I'm thinking a slap and a touch on the arm are two different things.

I'm not saying 'all' contact is a foul, I'm just reading to much into your words maybe.

If I see/hear a kid getting slapped on the arm, I'm going to call it.

So you are going to call what you hear?

If that is the case, are you sure you are not hearing hands clap together?

Peace

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by WindyCityRef
You said 'slapped' on the arm. I'm thinking a slap and a touch on the arm are two different things.

I'm not saying 'all' contact is a foul, I'm just reading to much into your words maybe.

If I see/hear a kid getting slapped on the arm, I'm going to call it.

A1 is taking the ball to the basket,B1 is beat and swipes at A1 slapping his left forearm.A1 has control of the ball with his right hand and passes the ball to A2 for a momentum changing dunk.

That is why you always hear,"Hold your whistle and let the play happen." By your standards you have a foul,no basket,
and B1 being rewarded for getting beat.By my and Rut's standard you have incidental contact,an assist,and B1 getting yelled at by his coach for getting beat.

[footlocker]

Blindzebra-

great example. no way should B1 be rewarded for bad play. no coach would want that called when their team has the ball. ad/dis is about what calls are good for the game.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by blindzebra

A1 is taking the ball to the basket,B1 is beat and swipes at A1 slapping his left forearm.A1 has control of the ball with his right hand and passes the ball to A2 for a momentum changing dunk.

That is why you always hear,"Hold your whistle and let the play happen." By your standards you have a foul,no basket,
and B1 being rewarded for getting beat.By my and Rut's standard you have incidental contact,an assist,and B1 getting yelled at by his coach for getting beat.

Early in my career, I got ripped apart for making a call like that in camp. So I agree with you on this totally.

Peace

[WindyCityRef]

Well, I seem to be in the minority here so I'm going to discuss this with all the officials I work with around here and talk with the varsity guys in between games. See what the prevailing opinion is in these parts.

I did this with the '3 second' thingy after reading and participating in that thread last week. 'All' of the varsity guys I talked with about the 3 second violation agreed that this is something one most aviod calling if you can. Game manage it they said and gave me some pionters.

Which leads me to last night:

Had a sophmore boys game, conference rivals. Great game, I worked with a guy who's been doing this for 34 years but has retired from doing varsity.

Tie game with 8 secs left (home team was up by 9 before they went into a stall offense with 2 minutes to play) home team is inbounding the ball. They get it in and make a couple of passes and as time is running out A1 shot fakes and B1 doesn't bite, he stays on the ground with arms up. A1 trys a disperate shot, and throws himself into B1 but doesn't displace B1 (in fact there wasn't much contact, but it looked awkward), B1 deflects the ball and the buzzer goes off. I called nothing, it happened in my primary. Of course the home crowd and coach loved me for holding my whistle. hehe.

Anyway, home team losses in OT. In the locker room afterward my partner lets me have it for not calling the foul. I told him what I saw and why I didn't blow the whistle. He says he didn't see it but out of the corner of his eye but what he did see looked ugly. My response was that I've been told that just because it looked ugly doesn't mean it was a foul. The 3 varstiy guys who were there for the next game agreed with me, but they didn't see the play.

Even though we talked about it for a half hour after the game, I'm still not convinced he is right. During the game he made two calls on blocked shots that from my vantage point at trail looked like clean blocks, even though they looked bad, I didnt' see any contact between the players, just a very hard block of the ball.

Still learning, guess I always will be.