Backcourt Violation ?

[Bart Tyson]

Originally posted by tnroundballref

Bart, I asked myself that very question after the game and my answer was yes,if he had requested a TO while in the air while the ball, I would have given it to him, but not after he already let go of it. He was almost cuping the ball between his hand and forearm while in the air. I felt as though he had control.

[Edited by tnroundballref on Feb 5th, 2004 at 02:36 PM]

This sounded like a bang bang play. By the time you blow the whistle, the ball is out of his hands. That would be a hard sale.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
The guide line we have been given to judge control is, no control until they grab it with two hands.

If that is your guideline, follow it in your area. And it is the right guideline 90% of the time or more, so it makes the call much simpler to get right.

However, you clearly can achieve control of a basketball without putting a second hand on the ball. So if your "powers that be" do not demand that you have two hands in orer to achieve player control, I would leave it to the official's judgment as to whether the player had control with one hand. And since most of the time they don't have control with one hand, you should err on the side of no control unless you are absolutely positive that the player had control. In this case, it sounds like the official was positive and made a good call.

[Adam]

Originally posted by cmathews
Bart,
You missed my point. You're post said grant the TO while the ball is flying to the backcourt . Roundballref made my point while I was typing

The post said the player calls it "while throwing" the ball. If you think he has control enough for a bc violation, then he must have control enough to call a TO. Just because you don't blow your whistle until the ball is 30 feet down court doesn't mean it's a bad call. You can't call bc if you wouldn't have given him the TO.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
The guide line we have been given to judge control is, no control until they grab it with two hands.

I'm sorry Bart, as I know we've been on opposite sides lately bu that is a completely and totally false guideline. You can easily control the ball with one hand.

Fellas, you can make up out these things that you want to about lack of control. Bottom line is that if he didn't tap or bat it, he passed it. A player can pass a ball without player control and a no player that I know of can bat a ball over 50 feet.

If this was volleyball, would it be a legal touch? No, and in volleyball, a bat is a legal touch. This isn't a bat.

[red]

To Hawks Coach and cmathews - thanks for the clarification. You're right - poor analagy.

[Bart Tyson]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

I'm sorry Bart, as I know we've been on opposite sides lately bu that is a completely and totally false guideline. You can easily control the ball with one hand.

Fellas, you can make up out these things that you want to about lack of control. Bottom line is that if he didn't tap or bat it, he passed it. A player can pass a ball without player control and a no player that I know of can bat a ball over 50 feet.

If this was volleyball, would it be a legal touch? No, and in volleyball, a bat is a legal touch. This isn't a bat.

Am I to assume you would call a double dribble when a player is attempting to gain control, he intercepts a pass by reaching out with one hand and pushes it to the floor, then grabs it with two hands and starts his dribble?

[Adam]

If he grabs the ball and is able to redirect it, and it looks like control to me, then it sure as heck looks like a dribble. While I certainly think it's not going to happen often, I think there are definitely situations where a player can exhibit control with one hand.

[Smitty]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
Am I to assume you would call a double dribble when a player is attempting to gain control, he intercepts a pass by reaching out with one hand and pushes it to the floor, then grabs it with two hands and starts his dribble? [/B]

If he pushed it to the floor first with one hand then yes, it would be double dribble. If the ball merely hit his hand fell to the floor and he picked it up, I would call that a fumble and allow the dribble. Throwing a similar scenario back at you, what if he intercepts a pass, pushes the ball to the floor then when the ball comes back up he pushes the ball to the floor again, then picks it up with both hands and starts to dribble? Would you not call double dribble? What's the difference between your scenario and that one?

[Bart Tyson]

Throwing a similar scenario back at you, what if he intercepts a pass, pushes the ball to the floor then when the ball comes back up he pushes the ball to the floor again, then picks it up with both hands and starts to dribble? Would you not call double dribble? What's the difference between your scenario and that one? [/B]

I guess I would have to see the play. If in my judgement, it appears he is attempting to gain control by a Bat, Push, then I might not call a double dribble. I guess the bottom line, is it absolutely has to be clear to the 30th row it was control. I will error on the side of no control. I don't think "push" is necessarily control. At what point does it go from a bat to a push. Rebound, player Bat/Pushes the ball away form the goal, goes to BC ( which you guys already said to go 50 feet, must be control) teammate gets it, beep. violation?

[thumpferee]

I had an official once tell me he gave a TO while a player was passing it to another. No posession was lost, still team control on the pass. TO granted. You know the rest, the ball was stolen on the pass, sorry coach, team control.

30 or full coach?

thoughts?

[Dewey1]

Bart

I have to disagree that you need 2 hands on a ball to gain control of a ball.

The orignal post says the player slings the ball not bats or tips. I agree with you that if a player just bats or tips the ball then there maybe no team control. But if the player can sling it 50ft and the ref on the play would have granted a TO if requested I don't know that there is much doubt about control.

I think that your guidline is a bit off. This is not to say that anytime a player touches the ball with one hand he/she has control, but that it is possible and even likely that a player can gain control with one hand.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by thumpferee
I had an official once tell me he gave a TO while a player was passing it to another. No posession was lost, still team control on the pass. TO granted. You know the rest, the ball was stolen on the pass, sorry coach, team control.

30 or full coach?

thoughts?

Yeah, I think that you can only grant the TO if there was player control. The official was wrong.

[Smitty]

Originally posted by thumpferee
I had an official once tell me he gave a TO while a player was passing it to another. No posession was lost, still team control on the pass. TO granted. You know the rest, the ball was stolen on the pass, sorry coach, team control.

30 or full coach?

thoughts?

A timeout can only be granted to a team with player control or during a dead ball. Team control is not sufficient to be able to call a timeout. There must be player control. The ref in your situation got it wrong and paid the price. Unfortunately for the other team, once the ref grants the timout, there's no turning back.

5-8 Art. 3

[Bart Tyson]

Which brings up another question. Could you realize your mistake and say "inadvertent whistle" and go to the AP?