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Old Thu Feb 05, 2004, 02:18am
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An official is running up the playing court to cover the play area and as they pass the bench of Team A (the official has his back to the bench) somone on Team A's bench uses foul language directed toward that official. Who should the official give the technical foul to?
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Old Thu Feb 05, 2004, 04:06am
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Hey TM,

My first reaction to this post is that I think to stay out of the most trouble, I would want to KNOW on who for sure, the T would be. Of course, w/ this sit. u might not know, but that it was bad enough (everyone in the crowd heard, or too many on the floor heard, etc.) that you had to have a T, then you could admin. one on the bench--indirect to the coach. I shouldn't be harder than that, I'd think. Whatchyoo think?
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Old Thu Feb 05, 2004, 07:49am
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Quote:
Originally posted by tmwhit
An official is running up the playing court to cover the play area and as they pass the bench of Team A (the official has his back to the bench) somone on Team A's bench uses foul language directed toward that official. Who should the official give the technical foul to?

If you are certain that it was a substitute on the bench then you have two options:

1) If you are certain which substitute made the comments, that player is charged with a direct technical foul for unsportsmanlike conduct and the head coach is charged with an indirect technical foul; if the coaching box is used in your state, the head coach has lost his coaching box privileges. Or,

2) If you are not certain which substitute made the comments, the head coach is charged with a technical foul; if the coaching box is used in your state, the head coach has lost his coaching box privileges.
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Old Tue Feb 10, 2004, 07:45am
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Quote:
Originally posted by zebracz
you could admin. one on the bench--indirect to the coach.
Under NFHS rules you can't do that. Any technical foul on bench personnel must be charged directly to some single offender. It also is charged indirectly to the head coach. See the penalty section on page 63 for 10-4 as well as the chart on page 76.

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
If you are not certain which substitute made the comments, the head coach is charged with a technical foul; if the coaching box is used in your state, the head coach has lost his coaching box privileges.
If you are certain that the comment was not made by the head coach, but by some team member, then, I believe, that this method is not justified either for NFHS basketball rules. You have to just pick one of the subs and charge it directly to him.
Of interest here is that the NFHS Soccer committee made a rule change for this year, which specifically addresses this issue. The rule states that in this specific situation if the official cannot determine who made the comments from the bench then the head coach receives the penalty. The basketball committee should strongly consider following suit here, but until they do, I simply cannot justify a direct on the head coach for something that we know he did not do. It just isn't supported by the rules.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Feb 10th, 2004 at 06:53 AM]
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Old Tue Feb 10, 2004, 12:01pm
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One method that I found to work is to go ahead and just pick one of the players at random. Usually, he will protest and tell you who really said it - then you just change your call.

And....if he doesn't protest, it means one of two things - either he was the correct one, or he wasn't but doesn't want to rat out his friend. Either way, you've doled out the correct punishment against their team.

If the wrong player gets the T, tough. It's only a game, anyway.
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Old Tue Feb 10, 2004, 12:22pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref
Quote:
Originally posted by zebracz
you could admin. one on the bench--indirect to the coach.
Under NFHS rules you can't do that. Any technical foul on bench personnel must be charged directly to some single offender. It also is charged indirectly to the head coach. See the penalty section on page 63 for 10-4 as well as the chart on page 76.

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
If you are not certain which substitute made the comments, the head coach is charged with a technical foul; if the coaching box is used in your state, the head coach has lost his coaching box privileges.
If you are certain that the comment was not made by the head coach, but by some team member, then, I believe, that this method is not justified either for NFHS basketball rules. You have to just pick one of the subs and charge it directly to him.
Of interest here is that the NFHS Soccer committee made a rule change for this year, which specifically addresses this issue. The rule states that in this specific situation if the official cannot determine who made the comments from the bench then the head coach receives the penalty. The basketball committee should strongly consider following suit here, but until they do, I simply cannot justify a direct on the head coach for something that we know he did not do. It just isn't supported by the rules.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Feb 10th, 2004 at 06:53 AM]

You most certainly can to charge a direct technical foul to the coach if you are certain that the offending language came from bench personnel but you are not sure who on the bench used the offending language.

A6 swears at the official and the official knows that it is A6 is the member of the bench that swore at him. A6 received a direct technical foul and the head coach receives an indirect technical foul. Why does the head coach receive and indirect technical foul? The head coach receives a indirect technical foul, because the conduct of bench personnel is his responsibility, and the penalty of an indirect technical foul in the play that I just described is supposed to be incentive for the head coach to keep his bench under control.

Since the head coach has the responsibility to keep his bench under control, a direct technical foul charged to the head coach is the correct penalty for the original play posted at the beginning of this thread.
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Old Tue Feb 10, 2004, 04:25pm
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Most of these replies come to bear ONLY when we have certain knowledge it was bench personell, NOT a fan, etc. behind the bench.

Gotta be sure it was one and not the other. By the description in the original post, it appears it would be impossible to distinguish in this case. Unless, of course, there was no one else seated near the bench in question.

Where you cannot ascertain the complete facts, your only option is to pass on any call. Though you may certainly communicate, at minimum, with body language directed towards the bench area, that you are aware of the possibility of inappropriate behavior.

Where you have been able to ascertain with complete confidence (is that redundant? I'm not sure) I agree with MTD's options listed above.
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Old Thu Feb 12, 2004, 06:23am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Since the head coach has the responsibility to keep his bench under control, a direct technical foul charged to the head coach is the correct penalty for the original play posted at the beginning of this thread.
MTD,
Your reasoning is great and is exactly why the NFHS Soccer rules committee chose to make this change. I happen to personally agree with the premise, but until basketball codifies it in their book, I think you are overstepping. We have to follow the rules as written.
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Old Thu Feb 12, 2004, 08:58am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Since the head coach has the responsibility to keep his bench under control, a direct technical foul charged to the head coach is the correct penalty for the original play posted at the beginning of this thread.
MTD,
Your reasoning is great and is exactly why the NFHS Soccer rules committee chose to make this change. I happen to personally agree with the premise, but until basketball codifies it in their book, I think you are overstepping. We have to follow the rules as written.

Thank you for praising my reasoning, but an official is not overstepping his authority when giving a direct technical foul to the head coach in the situation we have been discussing. An unsportsmanlike act was committed by a member of the bench and the act must be penalized. Who better to charge it to than the person most responsible for bench conduct. If the official heard the remarks, then the head coach also heard them.

MTD, Sr.
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Old Thu Feb 12, 2004, 11:23am
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Why wouldn't that be an indirect?
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