How to talk to Officials

[Ref Daddy]

Never tell the referee's that you were/are an official as well. If you ever are or become one - don't play both roles.

Don't call fouls and other violations from the bench.

COACH YOUR PLAYERS!!!!

[Rich]

Originally posted by Snaqwells

Coach give it up. Your post here is a complete non-sequiter from Rut's post. He didn't say anything about a pedastal. He only pointed out the obvious, and I think your issues are getting in the way of your vision.
I don't recall a single post from you that wasn't complaining about some mythical offense you took by something an official said on this board. You were offended by Dan's jocularity (that's "sense of humor" for those of you in Rio Linda), and you're offended by Rut's pointed advice.

An analogy, Coach.
You're becoming that coach who is complaining from the tipoff about phantom fouls and vague violations. I hear you yelling during a throw-in, "he traveled." I hear you screaming when your player loses a rebound, "Over the back!" I hear you hollar, "call it both ways!" when we call a hand check on your point guard. I hear you yell, "Reach in!" when your forward has the ball stolen. I hear you keeping score by reading the foul chart.

Now, when you have a legitimate question about why I didn't call a back court violation (I may have even kicked the call), I don't hear you. All I hear when I see your lips moving is, "3 seconds!"

Oh, look who's back. BBallCoach with 15 total posts and 15 of those posts telling us why he doesn't like officials.

[cmathews]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

Oh, look who's back. BBallCoach with 15 total posts and 15 of those posts telling us why he doesn't like officials. [/B]

At least he is consistent LOL which is all we can ask of a coach....oh wait that is all they should expect of us LOL

[Hawks Coach]

Limit what you say to stuff that really matters, and stuff that can maybe be changed. Stuff that can change includes correctable error - but you better know the rule cold, including what falls under it and when it can be applied. I will also go to a ref if a team is consistently doing something illegal and getting an advantage from it, e.g., scoring off an illegal screen. You don't ask them to call the one that just happened, but you might say that "Watch 32, she is setting illegal screens at the elbow every time," or something to that effect. But this should only be used when it's blatant and happened more than one occasion, not the borderline screens that we all get away with or the single illegal screen that was missed.

I will rarely go to the ref on a blatant missed call where I think I might get it back, like the three points rule on the backcourt call (and I got one of these reversed when the ref just blew it and knew it) or an inbounds backcourt call when we didn't have player control (also got one reversed). However, I have also had a ref say my team did have control or that my dribbler did have all three points front court, at which point the conversation is over - we are now in agreement as to the correct application of the rules, he just saw something differently than me and it's what he saw that counts!

Also, I didn't do any of these things in a confrontational manner, and I was right on the point about what the rule was and why it impacted a call.

Stuff that you leave alone is in many posts above (asking for 3 secs, over the back, etc.), as well as the single no-call on a foul, arguing a block/charge call, arguing the direction on an OOB call, etc. These are single calls based on judgment, they were already made, and they don't change. If you think a rule was applied incorrectly, know the rule and plead your case responsibly. If you think he didn't see the right thing and you want to question his judgment, you get nowhere in my experience.

[ref18]

I personally feel that a coach who is also an official should be held to a higher standard than a normal coach. Officials know how abusive coaches can be, and whenever i've reffed a game with an official as a coach, they have always been the most polite people.

For example a story from a game i did earlier tonight,

Coach A, all game "travel, call it both ways, 3 in the key, over the back, he's reaching, etc..." I finally give him the stop sign and say that's enough. He tells me he wants the T, so i give it to him. He set an example for the kids, because 2 T's were then called on bench personel by my partner. Not one word from coach B all game. Coach B's kids didn't argue with 1 call. At the end of the game, coach B comes up to me, tells me he's a former official. IMHO, Coach B's behavior is what is expected of officials when they choose to coach.

[Hawks Coach]

Unfortunately, I have also seen a coach who is a college official get the double T special because he couldn't stand the incompetence of the officials assigned to his girl's 6th grade travel game. Goes both ways. People are people.

And we are human beings, we will and can get you.

Seeing that I always seem to take things out of context according to the braintrust of this fine board, I was wondering how I should interpret this quote from the wonderful JRUT. I look forward to seeing how fasts all the officials ban together to insult me and defend their good old officiating buddy JRut. This should be interesting.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ref18
1) I personally feel that a coach who is also an official should be held to a higher standard than a normal coach.

2) Coach A, all game "travel, call it both ways, 3 in the key, over the back, he's reaching, etc..." I finally give him the stop sign and say that's enough. He tells me he wants the T, so i give it to him. He set an example for the kids, because 2 T's were then called on bench personel by my partner.

1) I don't agree with that at all. I think that all coaches should be held to an equal standard. Our job is to be equally fair, and you can't be that if you start using different criteria to deal with different coaches.

2) Question? Coach A got a direct T, and he also should have have got 2 indirect T's for the 2T's that were called on his bench personnel. Did you eject him as the rules call for?

[ref18]

That i did.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by BBallCoach
And we are human beings, we will and can get you.

Seeing that I always seem to take things out of context according to the braintrust of this fine board, I was wondering how I should interpret this quote from the wonderful JRUT. I look forward to seeing how fasts all the officials ban together to insult me and defend their good old officiating buddy JRut. This should be interesting.

I do not need anyone to stick up for me, I can do that all by myself quite well.

I made the same analogy in your other post. If you were to insult a cop that was giving you a ticket, that cop might have a couple of options. They can give you a ticket or they can give you a warning and let it go. If you insult that cop and call them names, they may and will not give you the benefit of the doubt. If you are nice and respectable, they might look the other way or think twice about giving you any punishment at all.

As an official, the more a coach b!tches and complains about fouls, not only does that lose credibility from me, but you will lose credibility with my partners. Then I will not hesitate to T you, and it might not have been for much, but I am just tired of hearing your mouth. It might just be you standing out of the coaching box when we ignored that during other parts of the game. But if a coach has not complained the entire game and now I have a tough call, then they complain, I will easily consider what they have to say much more than someone that has been a bullhorn the entire game.

Just one more thing. Officials treat newer coaches just like coaches treat newer officials. If you are a brand new coach, you are not getting the same rope as the the coach that has been around 20 years and has one 3 State Titles. It is just not going to happen. I know more officials that have been around 20 years than coaches that have been around in that same time. And officials know that the players and coaches change, but the schools and the officials for the most part stay the same. And trust me, you act a fool in front of a well respected official, do not be surprised if someone else knows the situation and watches you much more closely in the next game.

Everything I am telling you has nothing to do with fantasy, it has to deal with reality. And if you are too ignorant to see that, so be it. We are all human beings. Human beings do all kind of things in this world. Do not put it past an official to be really eager to stick your *** or throw you out of a game if you act in an really bad way.

Peace

[Bart Tyson]

You were offended by Dan's jocularity (that's "sense of humor" for those of you in Rio Linda), and you're offended by Rut's pointed advice.

[/B]

I think I have heard that before. Ditto

[mplagrow]

In defense of JRut, he has been on the forum actively spouting wisdom for a while. I can see where you could take the quote 'we can and will get you' defensively. However, let me be the first to say that after reading many of JRut's posts and responses, he is not the kind of guy looking to start trouble or abuse authority. He's simply making the observation that as humans, any official can be tempted to use the authority inappropriately when baited. Do I have that right, Jrut?

I apologize, Bballcoach, for my previous words saying something nice about Jrut. I guess it wouldn't really be fair to take his words in the context of his 3,000 posts to this forum, now, would it? In the future, if I don't have something nasty to say about somebody, I won't say anything at all.

[Adam]

Originally posted by BBallCoach
And we are human beings, we will and can get you.

Seeing that I always seem to take things out of context according to the braintrust of this fine board, I was wondering how I should interpret this quote from the wonderful JRUT. I look forward to seeing how fasts all the officials ban together to insult me and defend their good old officiating buddy JRut. This should be interesting.

Rut has already answered well for himself, but I felt the need to add something here. There is a very simple formula that should be used when attempting to ascertain what Rut means when he writes.
"At face value." Nothing more, nothing less. By a very strange coincidence, that same formula generally works with all of our posts.
Rut simply meant that if a coach acts like an a$$, he makes himself a target. Rut's police analogy is perfect here. Focus on the "human beings" aspect of it, and you'll realize what he meant.
Good grief, I'll spell it out for you one more time. Officiating is 90% judgement (Did that contact create an advantage? Did that foot come up? Did he let go before he stepped out of bounds?). We're human, and our judgment can be affected by mouthy coaches. If a coach gets to be too much of a thorn in my side, my fuse gets shorter because the temptation is there to whistle him for any small offense I can find. We'd like to think officials would be above this, but we're human.

[Adam]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson

I think I have heard that before. Ditto [/B]

Illustrating the absurd....

[Bart Tyson]

Originally posted by Snaqwells

Illustrating the absurd.... [/B]

No the "for those of you in Rio Linda" quote. I got the rest of it. I'm not from Rio Linda.