Cussing at official

In a girls Varsity game I gave the girl a T for turning to me and saying 'Blow Me'.

I thought it was pretty interesting and got some good laughs from some other officials and coaches who were in the stands at this tournament.

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

PS 2, Dan, rut,

I agree with using discression and preventative officiating for a minor "quiet" obscenity or gesture, but you are telling me you would not T a kid that turns to you and says F**K YOU after a call? Is it because we are not punishing this that our dignity as officials continues to come under increasing attack???

[Forksref]

JR

Could you please show me the quote where I said anything about an "ejection."

Me thinks we are making incorrect inferences.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref
PS 2, Dan, rut,

I agree with using discression and preventative officiating for a minor "quiet" obscenity or gesture, but you are telling me you would not T a kid that turns to you and says F**K YOU after a call? Is it because we are not punishing this that our dignity as officials continues to come under increasing attack???

I think turning to me and saying that, is very different than saying "$h!t" to themselves after missing a layup. Do not take my comments and try to twist the situation. We are not talking about comments towards and official or a player for that matter. We are talking about language which is in frustration and might not be heard by everyone. Totally different. And do not try to make this is to a right or wrong debate, it is not. The issue is we have to officiate the game after any decisions we make. That does not mean everyone is going to agree with us, but if you just eject a kid for this action, you cannot hesitate the next time it happens, no matter what. Now you have opened up a can of worms where you might have without context eject the next player. Instead of saying something to the player or even the coach and if you do decide the ejection is warranted, you at least have made it known where you stand.

Again, do what you feel is best. You have that right to do so. But I would rather leave myself some wiggle room than having to put myself in a box and use no descretion.

Just an opinion.

Peace

[CLAY]

Thank you all for helping me grow as an official, esp to those who felt I should have let the T go.

Tonight I have a high school game, and have made a note to myself that cussing at an official is not the right thing to do, but is accepted for many of you in this board.

So tonight, if this would happen again I will take the player aside tell him that it is not nice to cuss at an official. And after the game I will take him to McDonalds and buy him a happy meal.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref

I agree with using discression and preventative officiating for a minor "quiet" obscenity or gesture, but you are telling me you would not T a kid that turns to you and says F**K YOU after a call? Is it because we are not punishing this that our dignity as officials continues to come under increasing attack???

First of all, in the original post, the kid did not turn to the ref. He had his back to the ref.

Second of all, everyone has their own line drawn in the sand. Personally, I think I'd probably give a T if I heard a kid say, "F-you" after I had made a call. But then again, there are even extenuating circumstances to that. If the kid was losing by 30 and there was a minute left in the game, I might just ignore it.

I have never heard anyone attack the dignity of officials because they let too much swearing go on in the game. Besides, who is at fault here? When I played, I would have never ever sworn at an official. If I had done that, my coach would have sat me down for the rest of the game and my dad probably would have pulled me off the team for the rest of the season. We're out there trying to control the game. We're not out there trying to correct the mistakes of crappy parents, coaches and administrators.

Z


P.S. to Clay "Buy the kid a happy meal." That's hilarious. :-) I don't think anyone is saying you did the wrong thing. An "F-you" directed at the official is different from a frustrated "****" to nobody in particular. I think others are just saying that swearing is not always an instant T. Anytime we become a "black and white" official where we are always going to deal with something the same way without thinking about the context of the game, we may end up regretting it. The coach was certainly wrong for telling you to ignore it instead of dealing with his player.


[Edited by zebraman on Jan 30th, 2004 at 02:01 PM]

[CLAY]

And don't forget after calling the T the coach was told what the kid said and he condoned it. What is the coach teaching the kids.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by CLAY
And don't forget after calling the T the coach was told what the kid said and he condoned it. What is the coach teaching the kids.

If I come to a coach, I expect him or her to handle it. Not to condone it. If they do condone it, that just gives me more ammo to handle it myself.

Peace

[cmathews]

I agree with those that think that an under the breath profanity probably deserves a talking to or warning. To be honest I would guess that the majority of us have said under our breath, s**t I kicked that one or something similar. However the original post was directed at the official, even though his back was turned, I for one would have called it a flagrant T with the proper ejection.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref
PS 2, Dan, rut,

... but you are telling me you would not T a kid that turns to you and says F**K YOU after a call?

I never said that.

Is it because we are not punishing this that our dignity as officials continues to come under increasing attack???

What I do here on the east coast has no bearing on what you do out there in MN. I do not depend on your actions on the court to uphold my own dignity.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by zebraman
[/B]

Personally, I think I'd probably give a T if I heard a kid say, "F-you" after I had made a call. But then again, there are even extenuating circumstances to that. If the kid was losing by 30 and there was a minute left in the game, I might just ignore it.

[/B][/QUOTE]There are NEVER extenuating circumstances, or any excuses for that matter, to let any ball player at any level talk to you like that. That's completely different than a muffled obscenity mouthed out of frustration at himself.

Are you now gonna let every ballplayer on the floor tell you to f**k off? To be consistent and fair, you pretty well have to, don't you?

There is a major difference between a player swearing, and a player swearing AT an official.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 30th, 2004 at 02:22 PM]

[davidw]

Originally posted by cmathews
I agree with those that think that an under the breath profanity probably deserves a talking to or warning. To be honest I would guess that the majority of us have said under our breath, s**t I kicked that one or something similar. However the original post was directed at the official, even though his back was turned, I for one would have called it a flagrant T with the proper ejection.

I think in our threads many/(some) times we mix together more than one train of thought or situation. Which is what I think we have done here.

The original post mentioned a player cussing at an official by saying "f... you!" I don't care if it's directly face to face or with his back to me--in fact I think it may be a bigger deal with his back to me, as he may be sending a message to others on the floor that will contribute to a deterioration of the game. That, in my opinion, is flagrant and he is gone.

The morphed part of the thread seemed to deal with profanity in general and specifically profanity that went from 'muttered under breath to barely heard by official or those nearby'. In those situations I think I agree with many, that a lot of discreation can be used in these instances--which I usually do. Taking aside, the warning to player, coach, capt., etc.

In our assoc. we have been instructed the "F" word is automatic--flagrant. So, from that aspect, situations like the one which began this thread, would be very easy for me to judge and penalize.

[PS2Man]

Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref
PS 2, Dan, rut,

I agree with using discression and preventative officiating for a minor "quiet" obscenity or gesture, but you are telling me you would not T a kid that turns to you and says F**K YOU after a call? Is it because we are not punishing this that our dignity as officials continues to come under increasing attack???

I think you are scrambling the issues.

You have the right to do what you feel is best. But if I called a T for an action when a player cursed at themself, I would have some problems to deal with. Especially at the varsity and college levels. All I have ever said was make a decision based on context. I never said it was OK to curse the official out. Profanity is prohibited, but so is handchecking. Both have a context to what is going on in the game. Calling a handcheck when a player is not trying to go to the basket is just as bad as calling profanity on a player for using language to themself. That is just my opinion.

[cmathews]

Originally posted by PS2Man

I think you are scrambling the issues.

You have the right to do what you feel is best. But if I called a T for an action when a player cursed at themself, I would have some problems to deal with. Especially at the varsity and college levels. All I have ever said was make a decision based on context. I never said it was OK to curse the official out. Profanity is prohibited, but so is handchecking. Both have a context to what is going on in the game. Calling a handcheck when a player is not trying to go to the basket is just as bad as calling profanity on a player for using language to themself. That is just my opinion.

PS@ re read what MN 3 said, he said the exact same thing as you, it isn't him that is scrambling issues. He agreed about discretion, and pointed out that "f**k you" doesn't fall into that category, and from what I can tell it wouldn't in your book either...

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by davidw
The original post mentioned a player cussing at an official by saying "f... you!" I don't care if it's directly face to face or with his back to me--in fact I think it may be a bigger deal with his back to me, as he may be sending a message to others on the floor that will contribute to a deterioration of the game. That, in my opinion, is flagrant and he is gone.

I agree with Davidw. My years of experience and education about the English language have taught me that when someone says an expletive followed by the word "you" it means that person is addressing someone specific. Having his back turned and his head down just means that he is a little embarassed to say it any louder, not that he was talking to himself. Even the F-bomb doesn't have to be a T if it's frustration with self and very quiet. But that wasn't what happened in PS2Man's case. The kid was definitely addressing the ref, and that merits a T or a flagrant everytime.