Ref Ejected

[Forksref]

JR

What I meant was, the school has the ultimate authority over whom they hire. If a coach doesn't like an official the official is often "black-balled" and won't get games there again. That is the reality. Our association takes requests from schools for whom they want and don't want. We honor those requests.

In no way would I imply that the host school can influence an official during the contest. If I am doing a game, both schools have no authority except for safety issues during the game, e.g., condensation on the floor, roof leaking, fans out of control, power failures, etc. We would confer on those issues with the home game management.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Forksref
JR

What I meant was, the school has the ultimate authority over whom they hire. If a coach doesn't like an official the official is often "black-balled" and won't get games there again. That is the reality. Our association takes requests from schools for whom they want and don't want. We honor those requests.

Well that depends on the system you work under. Some schools work with assignors and do not have the opportunity to just "black-ball" an official because they do not like them. They might make a request and the assignor might decide not to assign the official to a bad situation, but if it comes down to what they want, it does not mean it is just agreed to. I know assignors that make it clear, if they do not like the official, then find someone else to do it or do it themselves. That depends on the system you work under.

Originally posted by Forksref
In no way would I imply that the host school can influence an official during the contest. If I am doing a game, both schools have no authority except for safety issues during the game, e.g., condensation on the floor, roof leaking, fans out of control, power failures, etc. We would confer on those issues with the home game management.

Yes we can confer on all those issues, but we can also make an independent decision. And I have known officials that have cancelled or suspended games on their own. Ultimately it is our call. And usually that is with their help, but it is not just their call. And the rules makes it clear who has that decision.

Peace

[Hawks Coach]

I can come up with numerous scenarios where a ref's actions might cause you to end a game or pull a team from the floor. I gave two extreme examples. Doesn't matter if they apply to this case. What I am saying is that the rules deal with coaches and fans and teams and players, but do not anticipate extreme misbehavior by officials.

I would argue that everyone would have a point at which, if the officials did not call the game, they would call it themselves or pull their team from the floor. It might result in a forfeit at the time, and depending on what caused it, that forfeit could be overridden. I would also say that I have never run into any of these scenarios nor would I expect to run into them. But things can happen that the rules do not anticipate or account for. I am also not sure what precisely is alleged to have occurred in the Texas case, or whether what occurred would be sufficient reason to end the game. And other authorities will have to decide that.

But take the NC rule where the player flipped off the crowd and received an automatic ejection. If that is the standard, it logically extends to officials. It's just that the writers of the rules don't write that in because they don't anticipate that occurring. But if it is enough to disqualify one participant, it should be enough for any participant, IMO. Refs should meet at least as high a standard as players and coaches, if not higher. Players and coaches can leave the game, but the ref must stay. That means that when all else is going to hell around them, they must keep their heads. Sorry, but that's what y'all signed up for. And you can get rid of all the idiots that don't keep their heads.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

I would argue that everyone would have a point at which, if the officials did not call the game, they would call it themselves or pull their team from the floor. It might result in a forfeit at the time, and depending on what caused it, that forfeit could be overridden. I would also say that I have never run into any of these scenarios nor would I expect to run into them. But things can happen that the rules do not anticipate or account for. I am also not sure what precisely is alleged to have occurred in the Texas case, or whether what occurred would be sufficient reason to end the game. And other authorities will have to decide that.

I will only speak for my state. But official have been told that when we make decisions about ejections and forefeitures, those decisions are final. Our state does not recognize protests or revisit issues when an official makes a decision. That decision might be reviewed if the official did something not sactioned, but all the state will do is suspend or pull the license of an official for misconduct.

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
But take the NC rule where the player flipped off the crowd and received an automatic ejection. If that is the standard, it logically extends to officials. It's just that the writers of the rules don't write that in because they don't anticipate that occurring. But if it is enough to disqualify one participant, it should be enough for any participant, IMO.

What NC does or what Texas does, it does not affect what the rest of the country might do. It is a great conversation piece, but it is not the standard in which all jurisdictions follow.

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Refs should meet at least as high a standard as players and coaches, if not higher. Players and coaches can leave the game, but the ref must stay. That means that when all else is going to hell around them, they must keep their heads. Sorry, but that's what y'all signed up for. And you can get rid of all the idiots that don't keep their heads.

No, that is not what we signed up for. We signed up to be the ultimate authority on the court. We signed up to be the final word. Which we go thru more background checks than most coaches I know do. And if we violate those rules or guidelines, we might have to give up our license. But that does not mean we leave the game. We are not coaches, our conduct is not subject to a higher authority while that game is going on. It might be later and yes this official's conduct will be examined later and scrutinized unlike any coach that will be ejected from a game. A coach pops off and curses out the fans, if his school wants to keep him he can come back after a suspension.

Coach what you have not addressed is to what extent are you going to allow this to happen. You cannot have administrators with a rooting interest decide when the official goes or not. If you do, then you can do it for much less than what this official was removed for. No different than a lawyer cannot just remove a judge and not go thru a procedure. The procedure (which was stated in the story) was not followed. If you want to remove the official from having a license, no problem here. But you cannot remove me just because you do not like something they do. Sorry, you cannot give one rule that backs that up. Coaches, players and fans are addressed on how their conduct can remove them from the game. There is no such procedure unless you have a state rule that we are not aware of.

Peace

[Hawks Coach]

jrut
Situation:
You punch my player in the face because he protests a call. Your partner was busy reporting a foul and does not see it, but it is on tape. You swear to your partner that you did nothing of the kind and you both agree that to continue the game. I pull my team because I won't have you reffing my team since you have physically assaulted my player. You declare forfeit.

I am willing to bet I can get a revisitation of this forfeit in any state, we will replay the game, and you won't be reffing.

[Smitty]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
jrut
Situation:
You punch my player in the face because he protests a call. Your partner was busy reporting a foul and does not see it, but it is on tape. You swear to your partner that you did nothing of the kind and you both agree that to continue the game. I pull my team because I won't have you reffing my team since you have physically assaulted my player. You declare forfeit.

I am willing to bet I can get a revisitation of this forfeit in any state, we will replay the game, and you won't be reffing.

What exactly are you trying to equate this to? You're comparing a punch with a word? I think you're hurting your case rather than helping to make your case. This is ridiculous.

Why stop there? Let's be even more dramatic. Let's say the one ref pulls out an Uzi from inside his shirt and blows the kid away while the other ref is turned reporting to the table....and on and on it goes. It's nonsensical.

[Edited by Smitty on Jan 30th, 2004 at 05:31 PM]

[Hawks Coach]

People are stating an absolute rule that only the ref can end the contest. I disagree. Game admin can as well, and should do so only when extreme circumstances require it. When I try to argue that, I am given an absolute - game admin can't do it, because the rules don't say that they can. That's why I give an extreme example that everyone can agree with.

If everyone agrees in my case that game admin coulod have reason to end a game, then we are now only talking about degrees of severity here. What referee action is bad enough that game admin can take this action? It doesn't sound to me like this is the extreme case that would justify ejecting a ref, given the sketchiy info we have. But we honestly don't know what is alleged. So making absolute statements either way is unwarranted.

[Ref Daddy]

UPDATE - The latest!

Ref accused of making profane remark wants proof
08:41 PM CST on Friday, January 30, 2004
By DAVID McNABB / The Dallas Morning News

Basketball referee Floyd Woods said he has requested Mesquite Independent School District officials to present game video to support allegations that he had inappropriate interaction with spectators Tuesday.

A MISD administrator escorted Woods from the Mesquite Poteet gym after parents claimed Woods had directed a profanity at them. The Mesquite Poteet-Mesquite Horn girls game was suspended and resumed with different referees the next night.

Woods denied that he had any interaction with parents.

"I didn't have any eye contact," Woods said. " I didn't talk with anyone."

MISD officials said they are cooperating with the Dallas Basketball Officials Association's investigation and will turn over any video or information. Poteet coaches were having the game videotaped but said the camera is turned off while referees are setting up a free throw and turned on only when the player is shooting. The parents claim Woods made the remark between free throws.

Woods, a former president of DBOA, said he has never been cited for misconduct in his 19-year career. He still is fulfilling his officiating obligations.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
People are stating an absolute rule that only the ref can end the contest. I disagree. Game admin can as well, and should do so only when extreme circumstances require it. When I try to argue that, I am given an absolute - game admin can't do it, because the rules don't say that they can. That's why I give an extreme example that everyone can agree with.

We can eject coaches for things that has nothing to do with profanity. You cannot T us up for our behavior. My point is where do you draw the line. Because if no profanity was used, then what? Of course if an official gets into a physical fight that is another issue. But I have never seen that happen and probably never will.

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
If everyone agrees in my case that game admin coulod have reason to end a game, then we are now only talking about degrees of severity here. What referee action is bad enough that game admin can take this action? It doesn't sound to me like this is the extreme case that would justify ejecting a ref, given the sketchiy info we have. But we honestly don't know what is alleged. So making absolute statements either way is unwarranted.

Using profanity and pulling out an gun are totally different from each other. For one, pulling out a gun is going to get you put in jail. You did not just violate the rules, you broke a law. All I am saying is that profanity does not fit that mode. If you want to talk about other situations, maybe. But the administator has no business making calls on if an official stays or leaves. Not just because someone was offended. If you want to equate apples and oranges, go right ahead. Report yes, eject no.

Peace

[SMEngmann]

If and only if the official poses a significant hazard to the safety of the players or commits some sort of crime during the game should game administration EVER have the authority to stop the game, regardless of whether the official was right or wrong in his actions. The officials are the sole authority in charge of the game, and had the situation between the crowd and the official grown so out of control that it impacted the conduct of the game (which it must have for GA to determine that ejection was its only recourse), then the gym should have been cleared of all spectators by GA and finished in an empty gym. The official is needed to continue the game and the crowd isn't, so eliminating the crowd would have been the best solution (particularly when it was the crowd and not the players who the official was feuding with). There is absolutely NO justification in this context for throwing the official out of the gym, I don't care if he got on the PA and swore at the crowd.

Of course every official is accountable for his actions after the game and ANY official who engages in gross misconduct will be reprimanded by their association. It reflects badly on all officials whenever someone behaves as is alleged by the school, but the proper course of action is to report the actions to a higher authority. This is especially true since there are no indications that the game was in any sort of jeopardy. The school should be strongly reprimanded for such action, to the point where the association should ding the school if it has the option or the power to do so.

[PS2Man]

SMEngmann

I think you said it best. There were other remedies to this situation. This was not one of them. If anything the fans that caused the problem should have been removed. And if they did not do anything as they claim, it still should have been handled after the game.

[canuckrefguy]

Originally posted by Ref Daddy
Poteet coaches were having the game videotaped but said the camera is turned off while referees are setting up a free throw and turned on only when the player is shooting. The parents claim Woods made the remark between free throws.

Yeah right. You could fertilize a football field with that one.

[Hawks Coach]

We need the officials, we don't need the fans - I think those are excellent points made by SEngman - we could empty the gym and play, but I still wonder at a potential double standard - allowing an official to remain after doing something that might cause a player or coahc to be ejected.

One other point to consider with respect to this ugly situation. An official who has lost self control and sworn at the crowd - are we certain that this official can continue to do his job in a fair and unbiased manner? We are retaining the officials because they are the sole neutral authority here - but are they once this has occurred?

[dblref]

Originally posted by Forksref
JR

What I meant was, the school has the ultimate authority over whom they hire. If a coach doesn't like an official the official is often "black-balled" and won't get games there again. That is the reality. Our association takes requests from schools for whom they want and don't want. We honor those requests.

In no way would I imply that the host school can influence an official during the contest. If I am doing a game, both schools have no authority except for safety issues during the game, e.g., condensation on the floor, roof leaking, fans out of control, power failures, etc. We would confer on those issues with the home game management.

Schools do not contract directly with officials in my area -- they only contract with official's associations. In my association, schools/coaches can only "black-ball", (we call it scratch) 2 officials. If they don't like the way we call it, they can contract with another association. Two districts did this when we went to 3-person crews for all varsity games and the 2 districts did not want to pay for 3. We have been told that they are very unhappy with the quality of the other association. BTW, they do use 3-person crews from the other association, but at a cheaper fee.

[tomegun]

I just wanted to reply on the interesting comments in this thread. We have to remember that Hawks Coach is just that, a coach. There are many coaches that probably wish a game could be suspended when something isn't going their way. His comments are from a coaches point of view. I would probably feel the same way if I were a coach. We shouldn't be in this to be popular so this situation should not surprise us. With the way society is right now this was bound to happen. On the one hand sportsmanship has went down the drain and whether we are officials or not, a human being only wants to take so much abuse. Once we get to the breaking point things happen. This official is only a man and there could have been many things going on in his life at that moment IF he did it. On the other hand, we live in a society where people lie about things all the time. I'm not going to compare it to anything cases going on around any mountains or anything but people lie when they don't get what they want. It was bound to happen when someone didn't get the calls they like.
Either way, this could be a step back for us as officials if this guy receives any kind of public punishment. We are already fighting a losing battle as it is.