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Mon Jan 26, 2004, 12:32pm
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Everyone appears to be creating a situation that does not, vfrom Mick's description, appear to have happened. We have a JV game, which is all training activity in my book anyway. These games are to prepare kids, and playing 5 on 4 does nothing for the home team. so home coach agrees to let the player stay in.
If the player decides it is license to foul without repercussions, the 6th foul can be the last. Nobody said you were stuck with this player for the rest of the game, regardless of what happens next. the idea is to give these kids a good contest, and if both coaches agree to this, I fail to see a major problem ethically. Liability, I guess could come into play if this player goes and hammers somebody and severely injures that player. but that can happen at any time. Having seen Micks posts for several years now, I doubt he would have agreed if the game were looking like one where a terrible situation was fixing to develop. Actually, the home coach would not want that player on the floor if he thought it looked like a potentially bad situtation. I take my teams to warm-up tournaments where fouls don't count, with certified officials reffing the games. I watched my players in several "5 quarter" JV scrimmages where fouls didn't count. These were run according to NF rules with the exception of the extra quarter and nobody fouling out. Were the refs at risk for reffing these games? If not, I fail to see a real risk to the ref for allowing this player to continue with the agreement of both coaches. 
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Mon Jan 26, 2004, 01:31pm
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So we draw the line at the Varsity level in terms of 5 fouls and you foul out ? I agree with you that lower levels of basketball are about learning the game but I also think that part of learning basketball is learning what is and what is not a foul (and obviously the limit you have) . You are just exposing yourself (As a referee)to a myriad of issues if you allow a player to continue on past the 5th foul and being the "good guy" is just not worth it . In my earlier post I agreed that as a parent /Coach I would like to see the player continue to play but as a referee I can't believe that a lot of you would even consider it, especially at a High School level (Obviously this would not happen at the Varsity level....I don't think). I was referring more to rec ball from 6th to 8th grade or Men's leagues . This situation should not be decided by the coaches as it is clearly not theirs to make . It may not be the most popular thing to tell the coaches that the player cannot continue but they will understand and move on . If they really want to even the playing field let 'em go at it 4 on 4
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Mon Jan 26, 2004, 01:40pm
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Quote:
As for the main issue I would have to say that if both coaches agree and the game is under JH, I would give the coach an option. "Number 23 can foul one more time, if that foul is flagrant, you are charged with a direct technical." I still don't like this idea much, but at least here are some options. ----------------------------------------------------------- That's my thought, and I'm sticking to it! Until told to do otherwise by wiser individuals!
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Mon Jan 26, 2004, 01:41pm
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When I first read this post I thought that there's no way I'd agree that letting a player with 5 fouls stay in the game is the right thing to do in any situation. Then I started thinking of other rules we let slide on lower level games. How many of us have let slide the 10 minute rule for having names, numbers and starters in the book at lower level games? Is letting the 5 fouls rule slide any less significant than that. Ultimately I decided, for me at least, that you can't let the 5 foul rule slide under any circumstances. What you could do is, if you were aware the kid had 4, not call a fifth unless it was a really obvious one. Or you could remind the coach that one of his kids has 4 and he better be careful not to pick up a fifth. But if a kid does get a fifth, he's gone. Blame it on the coach for letting one of his kids get into foul trouble when he only has 5 players. But it's not my fault. Find a way to try and prevent it from happening, but if it does happen, we have no choice.
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Mon Jan 26, 2004, 01:43pm
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That's what I get for trying to be funny ! I knew someone was gonna call me out on my "4 on 4" comment.....
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Mon Jan 26, 2004, 02:13pm
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NF rules state that the officials shall rule on all things not covered by the rule book. Number of fouls is covered and it says 5 and you are gone. That is not a judgement call and certainly nothing can be lost in interpretation because 5 is always 5. Why should I change the rules because one team only brought 5 players. I might look like the bad guy but I will always have the approved rules for the game to back up my decision. Our job is not to make the game as equal as possible. Our job is to apply the rules of basketball to the game. If one team or the other knows and follows those rules better they will benefit but I am not going to change rules or call differently to make it equal. And why would I ever change numbers on a foul. If there were two people that fouled at approximately the same time and one was in foul trouble calling on the one not in foul trouble is one thing. But to call a foul commited by one individual on a teammate in close proximaty that did not foul is simply unethical. Rules are rules. Maybe the reason we catch soo much flack from coaches, parents, and fans is that some of us stick to the rules and others seem to do what seems oppropriate at the time. If the NF wants to change the rule to give me the liberty at a lower level game to allow a player with 5 fouls to continue playing in the spirit of good sportsmanship than I might. Until then lets call it by the rule book.
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Mon Jan 26, 2004, 02:24pm
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Quote:
I wasn't suggesting reassigning the fifth foul, but maybe the first or second one called in the game was written in wrong. And, of course, your memory is perfect. 
__________________
"To win the game is great. To play the game is greater. But to love the game is the greatest of all."
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Mon Jan 26, 2004, 02:33pm
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If you allow a player to continue with 5 fouls and his 6th foul causes an injury, you have just given a litigeous society ammunition in the all to likely suit against you.
Unless the league specifically has such a provision, I'm not permitting it in any game I do. As Smity was refereing to, how does this compare with other rules we let slide. I say it doesn't. Scorebook rules, a little slide of the pivot foot (even 2-3 extra steps in some cases), 5 seconds in the lane, 12 to get it across half court, etc. don't involve contact and can't be construed as having a potentially dangerous result.
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