Disconcertion on the crowd?

[zebraman]

Boys 4A Varsity tonight. Big local rivalry game. Visiting team player B1 shooting the first of two free throws midway through the first quarter. After the release, an air horn goes off in the crowd. I tell partner I'm going to the table and I run over to get game management. They have the announcer request that no noisemakers be used and they inform me that they're going to watch the crowd for further problems. Good enough.

Midway through the second quarter, same thing happens (from the other side of the stands this time) only this time it sounds right as B2 is realeasing the free throw and it makes him "pull the string" (in my opinion of course) and he comes up short on the free throw. I go to the table again and this time they know who it is and toss the kid out. The visiting coach wants disconcertion. Well, I know that disconcertion is normally on a player, but I think he's got a good argument so I talk to my partner for a sec and he agrees. I get both coaches real quick and say "we're going to shoot two more." Home coach says, "how do you know it was one of our fans that did it?" I say, "I don't, but if one of your shooters gets disconcerted, I'll do the same for you." He wasn't thrilled but he bought off on it. No further problems. Routine game other than that.

Would you have handled it differently?

Thanks in advance!

Z

[ace]

Heck yes he gets the shot over again.. Thats just my opinon... rules books are in the bag in the car so i cant quote it. but that would fall under 2.4 (referee has final authority) That REALLY puts the shooter at a dissadvantage.... no matter who was shooting or shot off the air horn.

JA

Handled beautifully. I would been the first person standing to applaud your handling the situation and to the heck with everyone else in the gym. For sure, I'd probably lose the shirt on my back if I tried that.

[TriggerMN]

You have every right to award another throw. It's even allowed by the rules. Look up "artificial noisemaker" in the rulebook for a good explanation. Well done.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by TriggerMN
You have every right to award another throw. It's even allowed by the rules.

What rule allows you to call disconcertion on the fans?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by zebraman
Boys 4A Varsity tonight. Big local rivalry game. Visiting team player B1 shooting the first of two free throws midway through the first quarter. After the release, an air horn goes off in the crowd. I tell partner I'm going to the table and I run over to get game management. They have the announcer request that no noisemakers be used and they inform me that they're going to watch the crowd for further problems. Good enough.

Midway through the second quarter, same thing happens (from the other side of the stands this time) only this time it sounds right as B2 is realeasing the free throw and it makes him "pull the string" (in my opinion of course) and he comes up short on the free throw. I go to the table again and this time they know who it is and toss the kid out. The visiting coach wants disconcertion. Well, I know that disconcertion is normally on a player, but I think he's got a good argument so I talk to my partner for a sec and he agrees. I get both coaches real quick and say "we're going to shoot two more." Home coach says, "how do you know it was one of our fans that did it?" I say, "I don't, but if one of your shooters gets disconcerted, I'll do the same for you." He wasn't thrilled but he bought off on it. No further problems. Routine game other than that.

Would you have handled it differently?

Thanks in advance!

Z

This is NOT disconcerting action. But NFHS Casebook Play 1.18 SITUATION (c): Fans from the visiting are using artificial noisemakers during an opponent's attempted free throw. RULING: This is prohibited by rule. The officials shall notify game management to have a public address announcement made stating that the use of artificial noisemakers are prohibited at all times. If the problem continues it may result in a technical foul being assessed to the team supporter(s).

A subsitute free throw is not allowed in this situation, but a technical foul should have been assessed to the Team A supporter.

[BK]

I'd much rather screw things up by giving another shot instead of exacerbating the circumstances with a T on the crowd. You may have not been technically correct, but you done good!

[rcwilco]

I'm giving him the shot over. That was a good move to let both coaches know. I doubt that the other coach complained that much as the game went on. It is their gym to manage. Plus you told them that it would go both ways. Good call.

[PAULK1]

I'd much rather screw things up by giving another shot instead of exacerbating the circumstances with a T on the crowd. You may have not been technically correct, but you done good!

sometimes what seems to be the fair thing to do is in conflict with the rules this seems to be one of those situations.

Many states only recognize protests for a misapplication of the rules and in a situation like this it may arise.

It is clear what the rule/case wants you to do but it also gives you the leeway to make a judgement here. If you beleive the T would do more harm than good you don't have to do it.By removing the fan you have sent a clear message that this will not be tolerated.

While it may not be the fair thing to do the right thing is to follow the rule/case. If this were not covered by the rules you could make such a determination but since it is
you should rule accordingly.

[Edited by PAULK1 on Jan 18th, 2004 at 05:11 PM]

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by PAULK1
sometimes what seems to be the fair thing to do is in conflict with the rules this seems to be one of those situations.

Many states only recognize protests for a misapplication of the rules and in a situation like this it may arise.

It is clear what the rule/case wants you to do but it also gives you the leeway to make a judgement here. If you beleive the T would do more harm than good you don't have to do it.By removing the fan you have sent a clear message that this will not be tolerated.

While it may not be the fair thing to do the right thing is to follow the rule/case. If this were not covered by the rules you could make such a determination but since it is you should rule accordingly.

Reluctantly, I agree. The case play is clear. If it didn't exist, you could conceivably invoke 2-3. But the case play prevents that.

[Bart Tyson]

Its a T or nothing.

[TriggerMN]

Umm...the rule that says the referee has final say on all decisions not covered in the rules...

I stand corrected!

[zebraman]

Thanks for the input guys. The case that was cited by Mark D (1.18 C) assumes that you know which supporters blew the air horn. While one might assume that it was by the opponent of the thrower (you know what happens when you assume), we had no definite knowledge of that and I would never make that assumption. If you read my initial post, you'll see that each horn came from opposite sides of the bleachers.

I remember reading somewhere (rules book or case book, can't remember which) something to the effect that a technical foul on the crowd usually just makes things worse and that the NFHS doesn't recommend it. I cannot imagine a time when I would ever call a "T" on the crowd.

I was just wondering what others on this board would have done in this situation. I am very aware that we used the "elastic powers" of the ref on this one. I was just interested in hearing what others might have done.... not what the case and rulebook say because this exact one is not covered.

Thx,

Z

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by zebraman
I was just wondering what others on this board would have done in this situation. I am very aware that we used the "elastic powers" of the ref on this one. I was just interested in hearing what others might have done.... not what the case and rulebook say because this exact one is not covered.

I would have followed the interpretation that is directly on point for this play. How can you ask people what they would do and not expect them to refer to the rule book and case book? That doesn't make any sense. The case book says "visiting team" but in real situations, you'll never know for sure where the supporter is from. But that doesn't mean we ignore the case play. Using your interp. the case play shouldn't even eixst.

No, I wouldn't call technical foul either for one occurrence. But if it happened again and again, game management didn't take care of it, and I'm sure it's the same person sounding the horn every time a team shoots, I would be forced to issue the T.

What you did was fine for your game and you got away with it. But make no mistake, it was wrong by rule.

[BK]

I'd clear the section or the entire gym before I t'd the crowd!