Hard foul at end of game

[DJ]

I have called 2 flagrant fouls that have resulted in suspension for "hard" fouls. I called a flagrant foul two years ago for tripping when a player intentionally stuck our his leg and tripped an opponent. It was an ugly looking play and the kid was hurt but not seriously. In our state you are then required to report the incident to our State Activities office so that the appropriate measures are taken.

[SteveF]

Called 1 in 10 years. Couple years ago A1 is fouled by B1. I call it and am about ready to head to the table when B1 goes up and shoves A1. Tweet Flagrant Technical.

[BktBallRef]

Coach, we're not changing the way we're calling the game. The calls are different because the tactics being used are different. The strategy of the game has changed. Don't confuse incidental contact, with a player who is trying to foul. A player who is trying to foul is not committing incidental contact. Am I suppose to say, "You're not hitting him hard enough so it's just incidental contact,"? I can't find the logic in that.

Just because we know that the foul is going to be committed does not mean that the foul is to be called an intentional foul. Fouling at the end of the game is a legal strategy. The NF has stated that "Coaches must instruct their players regarding the proper techniques involved in strategic fouling." They recognize that strategy.

When they strategy is being employed, we have to recognize it. We have to recognize what's a foul and what's an intentional foul. When a team that is obviously attempting to foul strategically, without committing the acts that require an intentional foul call, then we have an obligation to call that foul.

To address, "If the offense is doing a great job of moving the ball to avoid a steal or foul..."I'm not advocating calling a foul in that situation, IF a foul has not been committed. However, when the foul occurs, it's got to be called or a player is going to end up in the front row because the defender is chasing hard.

I'm more addressing the situtation. 85% FT shooter A1 knows a foul is coming and is holding or dribbling the ball. I've seen inexperienced officials who won't call the foul on first contact. They wait until A1 gets whacked several times. That's stupid. If a defender goes up to a player and hits him on the arm, that's not incidental contact, no matter how hard the contact is or isn't. A player who is trying to foul is not committing incidental contact.

It's basic preventative officiating to call that first foul.

[SteveF]

Originally posted by RoyalsCoach
I have a question regarding some of the comments here and on other threads. On another thread it was mentioned that if a coach yells out,"Foul them", then a subsequent foul should be called intentional even if going after the ball. The reasoning being is you know the intent was to foul to stop the clock. Now in this thread the official is saying I am aware of the situation. I know you are going to try and foul to stop the clock so I am going to alter my way of calling fouls. If you know the intent is to foul why is this not an intentional foul? I have always assumed that when everybody in the building knows the defense is going to foul, the official cannot make that assumption. They can't read a players mind. But here you do make that assumption and alter the calls accordingly. It seems to me that penalizes the offense. If the offense is doing a great job of moving the ball to avoid a steal or foul and foul is called for slight contact that would not be called earlier. It penalizes good play. I am not advocating rough play. But I believe you can safely go after the ball and acutually foul without being too rough. It's just my opinion but I would like the game to be called the same from beginning to end.

So when we do that and your team avoids the slight foul a couple of times and then someone just clobbers the crap out of your star player and they are lost for the rest of the year will you be singing the same song? Don't think so. You will be over there yelling at us for not calling the slight contact. Seems like when a team is trying to foul every attempt is atleast twice as hard as the last. We are not trying to penalize you for good offense we are trying to keep someone from getting hurt.

[Edited by SteveF on Jan 15th, 2004 at 12:24 PM]

[DJ]

One other comment I would like to make is that too many times during my career I have seen where coaches do not tell their kids to stop fouling at the end of a game when there is no longer a legitimate chance to win so the fouls get to be "harder" fouls and before you know it someone is mad. I think that some coaches do not use common sense and "call the dogs off" and this is a major contributing factor for some pretty ugly situations that come at the end of a game and if we start to call intentional fouls they complain about that! It is not the best situation. I even saw a coach start to foul in the 2nd quarter of a district tournament because he got way behind early in the game and the officials had to call 70+ fouls before this nonsense ended. It made absolutely no sense. Thank heaven it was not my rotation to work and I only had to watch this travesty of the game. This kind of play can only lead to a bad situation for all that are involved.

[Hawks Coach]

I think that there needs to be a balance between the overly quick whistle at any suggestion of contact and the holding a whistle until somebody gets mugged. I don't like it if a ref calls a slight brush that fails to impact the play as a foul (unless we are trying to foul ). I also don't like it if you make pretty serious contact but the offense manages to retain the ball so the ref passes on the foul call. It really does come down to experience and judgment.

On the defensive side, royalcoach, I always tell my players to be sure they have the ball when all is said and done. If my player has the ball, we either have a foul or a steal. And they are making a play for the ball, which usually avoids an intentional call, even if in getting the ball they clearly had to foul. On the other hand, if they fail to get the ball and fail to get the foul, we have a loss. So I coach to get the ball and the rest takes care of itself.

[Jay R]

I think that there needs to be a balance between the overly quick whistle at any suggestion of contact and the holding a whistle until somebody gets mugged.

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Hawks Coach, balance is everything. I agree 100%.

[Kelvin green]

MY two cents

Call the flagrant, it makes it formal... Report it then to your state association. Where I am from if you call it flagrant and an ejection, they'll sit a week... sounds like exactly what they need.

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
MY two cents

Call the flagrant, it makes it formal... Report it then to your state association. Where I am from if you call it flagrant and an ejection, they'll sit a week... sounds like exactly what they need.

In WA state a player ejected because of a flagrant foul sits out a "like" game before he/she is eligible to play again.
i.e. if a Junior Varsity player gets ejected in his game, he cannot go up and play in the Varsity game that same night. He must sit out a Junior Varsity game before he is eligible to play any game.

RD

[dblref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
None against any of my players, ever, and that better remain that way. They will have a lot more to worry about than the one game suspension - I won't have it on my team, period. Note the lack of smiley!

Hawks Coach: Everytime I read one of your responses, I think you must be one heck of a good coach. I know we are in the same basic area, and as rainmaker said earlier, I hope I get to officiate one of your games -- perhaps we will meet in AAU season.

[Adam]

Originally posted by RookieDude
In WA state a player ejected because of a flagrant foul sits out a "like" game before he/she is eligible to play again.
i.e. if a Junior Varsity player gets ejected in his game, he cannot go up and play in the Varsity game that same night. He must sit out a Junior Varsity game before he is eligible to play any game.

RD

That is the rule in Iowa, as well.