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Wed Jan 14, 2004, 05:18pm
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In our girls varsity (small school) game last evening time was winding down with black up by about 15. White loses the ball out of bounds on their end line with about four seconds left. Black lines up a stack inbound play and white (inexplicably) lines up next to them. One black player makes a break for their basket at the other end of the floor with white several steps behind.
The inbounder lets the ball fly and black catches it just beyond half-court while their coach is screaming "Touchdown" (again, up 15). White catches up to black just as black is letting go of the layup and as the horn is sounding. I'm trail administering the throw in so I'm far away and haven't moved much as I'm still watching 8 players watch the play. Black ends up on the floor and the fans go crazy and it becomes obvious that white fouled her pretty hard, just based on the reaction of the bench and the fans. Partner is right on the play with a strong whistle and an intentional foul signal. Time has expired and white goes to their bench while most of black goes to their injured player. Partner reports the foul and calls the game over. I motion to black captain that I'd like a word and exhort her to speak to her teammates and encourage good sportsmanship in the post-game handshake, notwithstanding what just happened. (I'm getting to my point). I've got no opinion because I truly did not see the foul, but in this situation, had you been the calling official and had the player fouled the other hard, knocking her to the floor, would you call a flagrant foul which dictates in our area that she miss the following game? Post-game I told my partner that I didn't see the play at all but that I would have leaned toward calling a flagrant foul with the appropriate punishment. He said that he came up strong with the intentional signal but that he felt the game was over and that "it didn't really matter". 
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Wed Jan 14, 2004, 05:28pm
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Quote:
 I have no problem ruling a foul as flagrant any time during the game, if I judge it to be.
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Wed Jan 14, 2004, 06:08pm
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when white injures black with this hard foul and black misses the next two months with a separated shoulder, do you think black cares that the game was over, or that black thinks it doesn't matter. Clearly white thought that it wouldn't matter and went with the hard foul. If it was flagrant, it needs to be called here more than any other situation, just to show that you can't pull this when you are mad about losing. If it was a flagrant foul in a blowout, it should be called and she should sit.
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Wed Jan 14, 2004, 06:11pm
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I agree. It does matter. If it's flagrant, call it; especially at the end like this when the player thinks she can get away with it. It's a frustration foul, and it's violent. Sitting out the next game will teach her, calling an intentional won't teach her a thing because it didn't cost her anything.
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Wed Jan 14, 2004, 06:15pm
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[Quote]Originally posted by BktBallRef
I have no problem ruling a foul as flagrant any time during the game Just for kicks and giggles BBR (Or anyone else that wants to take part in this survey)...how many flagrant fouls have you called in your entire career? A Veteran buddy of mine has called a grand total of two...and that was in his first Varsity game 10 years ago...two guys swung at each other. RD P.S. Let me edit this...H.S./College games only...drunken' mens Rec leagues don't count. [Edited by RookieDude on Jan 14th, 2004 at 05:18 PM]
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Wed Jan 14, 2004, 06:34pm
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Called=0, same count as my common fouls, travelings, etc.
Seen many, but they weren't all called
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Wed Jan 14, 2004, 06:37pm
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Quote:
 RD
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Wed Jan 14, 2004, 06:43pm
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None against any of my players, ever, and that better remain that way. They will have a lot more to worry about than the one game suspension - I won't have it on my team, period. Note the lack of smiley!
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Wed Jan 14, 2004, 06:48pm
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I will confine my games to jr. H.S., H.S., college, AAU and YBOA Nationals.
The latest flagrant foul that I called was just last Wednesday night with 2:10 left in the second half of a men's coll. jr. varsity game. It was a flagrant foul personal foul and the first contact or attempted contact flagrant foul on a player that I had called in 29 years of officiating women's or men's college basketball. In 1998 I had a flagrant technical foul in a girls' H.S. varsity game when a A1 tried to punch B1 after I had called a common foul on B1. I had one in the 1993 AAU Girls' 18U Nationals when a post player tried to use her elbow to knock her opponent's head off during the game. Since there was no contact it was a flagrant technical foul. I had a flagrant technical foul in a boys' H.S. varsity game in 1986 when A1 tried to punch B1 after I had called a common foul on B1. In the H.S. varsity games of 1998 and 1986, A1's team was losing badly and was getting real frustrated. In 1984 I had a flagrant technical foul in a boys' H.S. varsity game when A1 did punch B1 after B1 had fouled A1 in the act of shooting. To show you how things have changed in 20 years. In this game, tossed Team A's Head Coach for charging onto the court after me because I had tossed A1. While Team B was shooting its technical free throws, A1 hurled a basketball at me. I did not see it coming until the last minute and ducked just in time. I am only 5'-09" and A1 was 6'-05", 250 lbm, and was headed to the Univ. of Nebraska on a football scholarship and if that ball had hit me in the head I am sure that I would have been knocked out at the very least if not worse. The next day I went to the appropriate police jurisdiction to file a criminal complaint against A1. The police laughed in my face. Today, A1 would have left the gym in handcuffs. Anything before 1984 is a foggy haze, come to think of it every thing is a foggy haze right now. MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn. Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn. Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials Ohio High School Athletic Association Toledo, Ohio
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Wed Jan 14, 2004, 07:32pm
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In HS basketball, 1. B1 shoves A1 into the bleachers and starts after him. Then, he realizes what an idiot he is, since his opponent. is a star fullback. A1 went on to play college football at East Carolina and was the Offensive MVP of the annual Blue-Gray All-Star game this past Christmas Day. Just a bit of nostalgia. But I truly see very little of this style of play. So I'm fortunate that I don't have to deal with it.
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Wed Jan 14, 2004, 07:50pm
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Intentional is not the same as flagrant. I see the severity of the foul as being on the flagrant/non-flagrant continuum. Intentional is fouling and not going for the ball, which can be light or severe.
I called intentional the other night on a girl who reached with both hands and pushed her opponent in the hip, no where near the ball. The coach yelled tht it was a bad call, that she was going for the ball. Laugh! After the game he wanted to talk and he said that he was more upset that we didn't call the 'ticky tack' fouls on his team as they were trying to stop the clock. I said, we didn't call ticky tack fouls for 3 1/2 quarters so we weren't going to call them then. I believe that the time of the game doesn't dictate whether a foul is intentional, rather the 'intent' of the foul. I have called intentional fouls in the first half before.
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Wed Jan 14, 2004, 07:55pm
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I understand what you're saying about calling it the same in the last four minutes as you did in the first 28. But consider this. Team B wasn't TRYING to foul in the first 28 minutes. They've changed tactics. We must to.
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Wed Jan 14, 2004, 08:04pm
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I don't let the time of the game tell me what to do. I don't 'change tactics.' Players can commit an intentional foul that is not ticky tacky and not severe. We've all seen it. I'll be the judge of whether contact needs to be called a foul or not. That's what I get paid to do, use my judgment.
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Wed Jan 14, 2004, 08:33pm
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Forksref, I gotta disagree. THE point of emphasis for the last few years has been rough play. One of the surest ways to get rough play at the end of the game is to give B4 the impression that he's gotta really foul a guy in order to get a call. I'll adjust a bit in those situations. We're not talking about shooting fouls here. I'll have a lower threshold for "advantage/disadvantage" at the end of a game where it's obvious the defense is trying to foul.
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Wed Jan 14, 2004, 08:55pm
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Yes, I've seen fouls that weren't ticky-tacky and weren't not severe. I've also seen officials who use this philosphy and seen games get out of hand becuase the official ignore fouls with less contact. I've seen fights and I've seen players hurt because an official ignored the foul, hoping the clock would run out. I've seen a whole lot of $hit that could have been avoided if the official had used better judgment. I hope that never happens to you.
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