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-   -   legal inbound play?? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/11701-legal-inbound-play.html)

MN 3 Sport Ref Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:45am

Varsity HS boys game last night. This view is presented from that of the lead. Team A inbound just outside right lane line. A1 passes in to A2 who is outside left block. A2 passes to A3 who is at top of key. A3 then passes to inbounder who is in right corner who drains a 3. Seems legal right. Here is the wrinkle. A1 remained OOB for (a conservative) 3 seconds and then moves 6-8 feet OOB around a screen and catches the ball IB to drain the 3. FED Rule 10.3.3 and case book 10.3.3 sitch B seems to very explicitly say that this is a technical foul for delaying to return after legally being OOB. We warned the coach between quarters that this was the case and of course he acted as if we were nuts. Just want some thoughts of the board on this. (May have been brought up in a prev thread) Thanks.

[Edited by MN 3 Sport Ref on Jan 14th, 2004 at 10:57 AM]

BktBallRef Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:51am

No argument here.

If he did it again, I'd whack him.

I don't know that I wouldn't have done it the first time, even without warning him.

garote Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:54am

You got it right. Whether or not the coach believed you.

Adam Wed Jan 14, 2004 01:54pm

Whack him, then explain it to the coach.

BayStateRef Wed Jan 14, 2004 05:31pm

My partner called a T on exact play last year, but I was on bench side so I ended up explaining it to JV coach (and to varsity coach who was on the bench). It was a deliberate play ("Every team in the league has this play," she said), executed perfectly and despite the lesson, I would not be surprised if she used it again.

Hawks Coach Wed Jan 14, 2004 06:03pm

I don't run plays like this (because they aren't legal!) but have had many run against me. I would expect a warning, then a T. No rule book support, but it seems like a good game managment approach. Nobody calls these teams on it (that's why they run it), it is not a commonly known rule (that's why it isn't called and you get flack when it is), so to whack them right away seems a bit strong. Educate, then punish.

Adam Wed Jan 14, 2004 06:08pm

I see your point, coach. But it's hard to justify stopping play to issue a warning that isn't prescribed in the rules. If I don't stop play, we allow team A to get an illegal advantage. The only way I can really stop play here is with a T.

Hawks Coach Wed Jan 14, 2004 06:11pm

Two seconds left and this play wins the game - I would maybe go with the T because it leads to an unfair outcome. First quarter, let the play develop and then talk to the coach. That two points isn't going to win or lose the game. The T could create issues that you don't need at that juncture, and is out of line with how other refs (don't) enforce the rule. JMO

wizard Wed Jan 14, 2004 06:17pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I don't run plays like this (because they aren't legal!) but have had many run against me. I would expect a warning, then a T. No rule book support, but it seems like a good game managment approach. Nobody calls these teams on it (that's why they run it), it is not a commonly known rule (that's why it isn't called and you get flack when it is), so to whack them right away seems a bit strong. Educate, then punish.
"No rule book support"? I beg to differ. I understand how you feel it's a little harsh. The ruling is the same as if a player steps OOB to avoid a 3 second call. That too, sounds a little harsh. But its that way for a reason.

Hawks Coach Wed Jan 14, 2004 06:24pm

wizard
I was saying that there is no rule book support for my way of handling things, not that there is no rule book support for making the call. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I am merely expressing as a coach, and one who can only lose out from my way of doing things since I don't run these plays, I don't like the T on the first time they run this play. I have seen these plays since I started coaching, never seen a warning or T. I have asked refs to stop teams from running this illegal play, and they treat me like I am from another planet. If most officials do not understand this rule and won't call it, then how can a coach know that this is a rule and expect a call.

I believe the T is put in the rulebook due to the unsporting nature of this play (unfair use of an OOB position). But it is really only unsporting if you know you are breaking a rule, and few participants, including officials, seem to know that. So that's why I suggest a warning, then a T.

wizard Wed Jan 14, 2004 06:35pm

Coach,
I agree with you.

Why not make it a violation? If a inbounding player moves from his designated throw-in spot, its a violation. Why not here?

It clear is a rule. But give out a T and get ready for some heat. Coach, maybe that's why the refs don't call it for you. They know what's on the horizon.

Hawks Coach Wed Jan 14, 2004 06:47pm

Actually, I don't ever ask for a T. I would ask them to inform the other coach that running such a play again will result in a T. But I can't get beyond the puzzled look on their face when I try to explain what is illegal.

Honestly, I don't think I have ever mentioned this to a ref that understood this rule.

Adam Wed Jan 14, 2004 08:41pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

Honestly, I don't think I have ever mentioned this to a ref that understood this rule.
Easy reason here. You wouldn't have had to. I agree, that it should be a violation. Maybe even a violation the first time, and a T the second time.

JeffTheRef Thu Jan 15, 2004 12:05am

I've been through this 50 times.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref
Varsity HS boys game last night. This view is presented from that of the lead. Team A inbound just outside right lane line. A1 passes in to A2 who is outside left block. A2 passes to A3 who is at top of key. A3 then passes to inbounder who is in right corner who drains a 3. Seems legal right. Here is the wrinkle. A1 remained OOB for (a conservative) 3 seconds and then moves 6-8 feet OOB around a screen and catches the ball IB to drain the 3. FED Rule 10.3.3 and case book 10.3.3 sitch B seems to very explicitly say that this is a technical foul for delaying to return after legally being OOB. We warned the coach between quarters that this was the case and of course he acted as if we were nuts. Just want some thoughts of the board on this. (May have been brought up in a prev thread) Thanks.

[Edited by MN 3 Sport Ref on Jan 14th, 2004 at 10:57 AM]

Warn 'em, if you like, then T the player if they don't clean it up. That inbounds play has been around since . . . before 'Nam It's wise-*** coaching.

rainmaker Thu Jan 15, 2004 02:57am

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Actually, I don't ever ask for a T. I would ask them to inform the other coach that running such a play again will result in a T. But I can't get beyond the puzzled look on their face when I try to explain what is illegal.

Honestly, I don't think I have ever mentioned this to a ref that understood this rule.

Hawks' Coach, I hope that you and I have a game together someday. I promise not to give you a funny look if you bring it up. But you won't have to, since I will have already dealt with it.

Luv2Ref Thu Jan 15, 2004 11:44am

Hawkscoach--
I dont understand why you say it would be ok to call a T last 2 seconds of close game but not before. What if it were a tie game in 2nd or 3rd quarter? Wouldn't the made 3 point shot still have an affect on outcome of game potentially? If you warn and not T team you cannot disallow shot attempt. I can see warning if shot does not go in, maybe.

Just curious


MN 3 Sport Ref Thu Jan 15, 2004 11:55am

Quote:

Originally posted by Luv2Ref
Hawkscoach--
I dont understand why you say it would be ok to call a T last 2 seconds of close game but not before. What if it were a tie game in 2nd or 3rd quarter? Wouldn't the made 3 point shot still have an affect on outcome of game potentially? If you warn and not T team you cannot disallow shot attempt. I can see warning if shot does not go in, maybe.

Just curious


LUV 2:

I think what Hawks is saying here that there is an appropriate time and place to warn a coach about this play in some situations. This is using good game management. In our game this occurred with 7 seconds to go in the first quarter. My partner simply told him about the infraction at the quarter break and we never saw the play again all night. At the time the play occurred my partner and I were the only 2 in the Gym that knew the play was illegal. The opposing coach never even knew of our discussion with the offending coach. IMO a little preventative officiating prevents many problems. Obviously if this play was run again or in a game deciding situation, we would have had to administer the immediate T.

Luv2Ref Thu Jan 15, 2004 12:33pm

My question still is if this play is run to success in the earlier quarters for a goal, how does a warning make up for the 2or3 points score illegally? In a close game!
I understand the prev. officiating part but this play has a direct affect on the outcome of game.

I also would take into account how much advantage was gained by the screen on the defender. If it really affected play. However, it seems the play discription at the beginning of this post seemed clear a distint advantage was gained for a goal? How does a casual warning make up for this? I believe more varsity coaches know this rule than we give them credit for.

Did anyone see the play on TV where the kid runs in doorway, down the hallway adjacent to the gym and back into the gym in 2nd doorway to get open for a game winning hoop!
Again, I realize this one is a little more obvious to call, however, the made bucket remains the same.

Adam Thu Jan 15, 2004 01:01pm

I guess another issue I've got, is what happens when you discreetly warn A's coach. B sees the play worked against his team early, and uses it to get open for a game winning shot as time expires. Ooh, now you're in a sticky situation.
Now, if you warn both coaches that this play is illegal, yet B just got burned on it, you're also asking for trouble.

Wow, the more I think about this play, the more I'd like to see it as a violation rather than a T.

Hawks Coach Thu Jan 15, 2004 03:17pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Luv2Ref
My question still is if this play is run to success in the earlier quarters for a goal, how does a warning make up for the 2or3 points score illegally? In a close game!
I understand the prev. officiating part but this play has a direct affect on the outcome of game.

I also would take into account how much advantage was gained by the screen on the defender. If it really affected play. However, it seems the play discription at the beginning of this post seemed clear a distint advantage was gained for a goal? How does a casual warning make up for this? I believe more varsity coaches know this rule than we give them credit for.

Did anyone see the play on TV where the kid runs in doorway, down the hallway adjacent to the gym and back into the gym in 2nd doorway to get open for a game winning hoop!
Again, I realize this one is a little more obvious to call, however, the made bucket remains the same.

Mathematically you are correct. but every game has ebbs and flows, players and coaches make decisions and plays based on scores, and I am of the school of thought that two points early doesn't really decide a game, despite all points counting equal.

If I am going to allow three consecutive baskets by the opposition before a TO, or set a point spread where I will call a TO to adjust what we are doing, then an early basket gets us to that point a bit quicker, but does not change the outcome - we adjust and it has or doesn't have it's desired outcome. Give somebody two points as the clock runs out, I can't do anything about it now. That is why it is absolutely essential that refs get the last two minutes of a close game right, because a mistake there has far more impact in that teams have no chance to recover.

wizard Thu Jan 15, 2004 03:27pm

Quote:

[i]Originally posted by Hawks Coach [/B]
That is why it is absolutely essential that refs get the last two minutes of a close game right, because a mistake there has far more impact in that teams have no chance to recover. [/B][/QUOTE]

To say that it is "essential" that refs get the last two minutes of a close game right is basically saying that officials win or lose close games.

All calls have equal importance.

Hawks Coach Thu Jan 15, 2004 03:38pm

I never have said that officials win and lose games. I consistently say the opposite. But I will always maintain that you want to do everything possible to get it right at the end. You cannot be perfect for an entire game, but you want to be as good as possible at the end in a close game.

The wrong OOB call in a tie game with 5 seconds to play is not the same as that same call in the first quarter. A blarge in that same sitch is far worse than the blarge in the first quarter - you don't want it ever, but you sure don't want that call in the last seconds of a tie game. To pretend otherwise is highly idealistic.

wizard Thu Jan 15, 2004 03:55pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
You cannot be perfect for an entire game, but you want to be as good as possible at the end in a close game.
This statement is true for coaches and players as well. Don't get me wrong, I have been coaching a lot longer than officiating. And I understand where you're coming from. But I've seen many players and coaches (myself included) who've screwed up in the critical final minutes of a game. As an official, I believe that I take more pride in being as good as possible at the end than I ever do as a coach.

Hawks Coach Thu Jan 15, 2004 04:41pm

I think most good refs feel that way
 
And you and the players have a heck of a lot more to do with how the end comes out than us coaches, despite what you might think listening to Dickie V. We have an influence, but if we didn't get it right on the practice court, we ain't fixin' it with 5 seconds to go. We just set the table, the players gotta cook the food and eat it!

wizard Thu Jan 15, 2004 04:46pm

Re: I think most good refs feel that way
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
We just set the table, the players gotta cook the food and eat it!
Then how come the coaches are the ones who get that sick feeling in their stomaches after a tough loss!


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