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Sun Jan 11, 2004, 02:28pm
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I've re-read definitions for Verticality, Guarding Position, and Foul...still have a question.
B1 has feet firmly planted, arms folded tight against torso, standing in a normal upright postion. Just before A1 steps by B1 to dribble past B1's position, B1 leans his large, upper torso to that side...and contact occurs. If no lean had happened, no contact would have happened. But A1's forward motion did initiate the contact with the leaning but stationary B1. Experience tells me this is a foul on B1, always, always. Whether playing defense, screening on offense, it is a f-o-u-l on B1. Basketball is not played in the leaning position. Is this correct? What is the proper rule citation? Thanks. 
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Sun Jan 11, 2004, 02:38pm
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Displacement.
You are right, but you still have to have some displacement and you still have to be consistent. Make sure if you make a call for a slight lean, you do that for every similar call. I guess what I am saying I am not so concerned with the lean, rather than the contact and kind of contact it causes. If player leans and does not get significant enough contact to affect the play, you might just pass on it.
Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
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Sun Jan 11, 2004, 04:19pm
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Quote:
If A1 gets head and shoulders past B1 before contact occurs, blocking foul on B1. If the lean by B1 is lateral and/or backwards, with no movement towards A1, and the contact by A1 is square into B1's torso (a little hard to imagine how this could happen, but bear with me), then I think you'd have a case to call the charge on A1. Once B1 has established LGP, he/she can move sideways or backwards and maintain LGP. Look at NCAA 10-21, especially A.R. 21. Someone else will have to provide NF rules and references.
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Sun Jan 11, 2004, 04:47pm
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Quote:
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Sun Jan 11, 2004, 07:21pm
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That equals a block.
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Sun Jan 11, 2004, 07:29pm
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Quote:
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I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum. It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow. Lonesome Dove
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Sun Jan 11, 2004, 08:30pm
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Quote:
Quote:
A.R. 21. A player who is guarding moves into the path of a dribbler and contact occurs. RULING: Either player may be responsible, but the greater responsibility shall be that of the dribbler when the player who is guarding conforms to the following principles that officials shall use in reaching a decision. The defensive player shall be assumed to have attained a guarding position when the defensive player is in the dribblerÂ’s path facing him or her. When the defensive player jumps into position, both feet must return to the floor after the jump before he or she can have attained a guarding position. No specific stance or distance shall be required. The guard may shift to maintain his or her position in the path of the dribbler, provided that the player who is guarding does not charge into the dribbler nor otherwise cause contact as outlined in this section. The responsibility of the dribbler for contact shall not shift merely because the player who is guarding turns or ducks to absorb shock when contact caused by the dribbler is imminent. The player who is guarding shall not cause contact by moving under or in front of a passer or thrower after the passer or thrower is in the air with his or her feet off the floor. The italics are mine. I'll leave it up to you to read the rest of the section (10-21), but it basically says that the guarding player can't charge into the dribbler, and that if the dribbler gets head and shoulders past the guarding player, it's a block. My reading of this is that if the B1 moves sideways, perpendicular to A1's dribbling path, neither towards nor away from A1, and A1 crashes into B1's torso, then B1 is still in legal guarding position and we have a PC foul on A1.
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Mon Jan 12, 2004, 06:02am
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"The guard may shift to maintain his or her position in the path of the dribbler, provided that the player who is guarding does not charge into the dribbler nor otherwise cause contact as outlined in this section. "
This means a the guard may shift HIS FEET....not his torso above his stationary feet.
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Mon Jan 12, 2004, 09:22am
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Disagree
I went to a camp this summer where Ed Rush happened to stop by and say hi. He talked about the block/charge call and what they are teaching and why. What it sounds like B1 did was firming up which they are teaching is legal and an offensive call. Now we are assuming that his feet are normal shoulder width apart he is "moving" to absorb the contact and not create contact. Just something to think about...
__________________
~Hodges My two sense! 
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Mon Jan 12, 2004, 09:27am
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If B leans sideways it is on him, it is no different than sticking a firm elbow out to get in the way. I don't think "firming up" encompasses leaning outside the verticle plane of your feet. That actually would be completely opposite of what I interpret "firming up" to be. Leaning will get you off balance and make you less stable, thus less firm.
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Mon Jan 12, 2004, 09:31am
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"Now we are assuming that his feet are normal shoulder width apart he is "moving" to absorb the contact and not create contact."
If B1 moves his torso laterally in order to absorb contact.... B1 has most likely created the contact by 'leaning' laterally. It's a f-o-u-l, I would say.
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Mon Jan 12, 2004, 11:27am
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Re: Disagree
Quote:
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