Providence/Tex game

[Dan_ref]

OT, A1 lay up at the buzzer, replay shows ball in A1's hand at 0:00 then ball released then red light goes on.

Give A 2 pts, Texas wins.

[williebfree]

How does NCAA ruling read?

Horn is first option then red light?

[TriggerMN]

Excellent job by Tim Higgins, John Clougherty, and Bob Donato tonight!! The intentional foul call by Donato was especially good, with about 8 minutes to go.

100% correct on the call at the end of the game. Clock hits 0:00, ball is released, red light comes on, in that order. Basket was ruled good.

The announcing crew, Sean McDonough, Bill Raftery, and Jay Bilas seemed to have some trouble in realizing how the clock could be at 0:00 before the red light came on, and wondered why they weren't "in sync." Here's why:

Let's say a clock goes from 2.0 seconds to 1.9 seconds. We can see that. However, if said clock does not have tenths visible, the "full second" part of the clock will still say "1" at 1.9 seconds. Same situation here. The "tenths" digit will read "0" when there are still nine one-hundreths of a second remaining. Now, I think there's either 24 or 36 frames per second on film. When you slow it down frame-by-frame, this means there will be 3 or 4 frames AFTER the game clock reads zero, but BEFORE the red light comes on.

It took a long time, but they flat out nailed it.

[gsf23]

I'm wondering that also. Why would you go to the light if the time is clearly visible? (Guess Trigger just answered that)

The Providence coach just said that one official told him that the basket would not count, then went and talked to Rick Barnes. After talking to Barnes they went to the replay again and then counted the bucket. Wonder what was said there to make them look again?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by gsf23
I'm wondering that also. Why would you go to the light if the time is clearly visible?

The Providence coach just said that one official told him that the basket would not count, then went and talked to Rick Barnes. After talking to Barnes they went to the replay again and then counted the bucket. Wonder what was said there to make them look again?

The purpose of the light is to designate when the horn sounds. Is is there for exactly this case.

[gsf23]

I don't thing that the light and the buzzer were in sync either. Going just by the horn I thought the basket was good.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by gsf23
I'm wondering that also. Why would you go to the light if the time is clearly visible? (Guess Trigger just answered that)

The Providence coach just said that one official told him that the basket would not count, then went and talked to Rick Barnes. After talking to Barnes they went to the replay again and then counted the bucket. Wonder what was said there to make them look again?

I don't believe the Providence coach for one second! No way
those officials would say that BEFORE they ruled it good/no
good and left the court.

Why would you say,"It was late coach,we're not going to count it," if you were not ruling on it right then and there?

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by gsf23
I don't thing that the light and the buzzer were in sync either. Going just by the horn I thought the basket was good.

Sound travels much slower than light.

It's possible that two different people in different locations could perceive it differently. Example:

Action observed by impartial observer #1:
Clock shows 0:00. Shot released. Horn sounds.

Action observed by impartial observer #2:
Clock shows 0:00. Horn sounds. Shot released.

The only difference is that observer #2 is much closer to the source of the horn than observer #1. Sound travels at approximately 1000 feet per second. So, in a medium sized gym of about 200 ft. from wall to wall where the horn is on one wall, it is possible that the sound could be heard up to 0.2 seconds different by two observers. The difference on the floor could be 0.1 second depending on the end of the court and the location of the horn.

In college and pro arenas, this difference can become even greater. The addition of the light negates the difference since light travel much much faster than sound.

[gsf23]

I agree that they got the call right, but this is what I saw when I watched it. The officials went over and looked at the replay. They were there for a couple of minutes, watching the replays. They come back onto the court and go over to talk to the providence coach. You can see the Providence coach raise his fists and smile after talking to the officials and he goes back to his bench and starts to get his team ready for the overtime. The officals then went over to Rick Barnes and talked to him. After talking to Barnes they went back to the replay and watched it again. After watching again they come back out and confer and then count the bucket.

I'm not going to say that anyone was lying until I hear what the officials have to say on the matter.

I'm just telling you what I say, not making any judegments.

[WinterWillie]

Originally posted by TriggerMN
Excellent job by Tim Higgins, John Clougherty, and Bob Donato tonight!! The intentional foul call by Donato was especially good, with about 8 minutes to go.

100% correct on the call at the end of the game. Clock hits 0:00, ball is released, red light comes on, in that order. Basket was ruled good.

The announcing crew, Sean McDonough, Bill Raftery, and Jay Bilas seemed to have some trouble in realizing how the clock could be at 0:00 before the red light came on, and wondered why they weren't "in sync." Here's why:

Let's say a clock goes from 2.0 seconds to 1.9 seconds. We can see that. However, if said clock does not have tenths visible, the "full second" part of the clock will still say "1" at 1.9 seconds. Same situation here. The "tenths" digit will read "0" when there are still nine one-hundreths of a second remaining. Now, I think there's either 24 or 36 frames per second on film. When you slow it down frame-by-frame, this means there will be 3 or 4 frames AFTER the game clock reads zero, but BEFORE the red light comes on.

It took a long time, but they flat out nailed it.

How can you say that? At first, they called the shot off because the ball was in his hand and the clock showed 00:0
Then, they changed their call because the light hadn't gone on or the buzzer hadn't gone off. There were many calls in the game like that which upset both coaches and left the players confused. Although it was an exciting game, I believe if you talked to them after the game, they would not consider it one of their better efforts. These guys are the "topdogs" in this profession, they make between 80 and 100 grand a season. You were watching a great crew in the twilight of their careers.

[JeffTheRef]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

OT, A1 lay up at the buzzer, replay shows ball in A1's hand at 0:00 then ball released then red light goes on.

Give A 2 pts, Texas wins.

clearly OUT of the shooter's hand when the red light goes on. You can bet your house on it.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by JeffTheRef

clearly OUT of the shooter's hand when the red light goes on. You can bet your house on it.

Jeff, that's what he said.

[JRutledge]

The NCAA requires during media games, the officials have to check the monitor at the end of the game. The officials just followed the guidelines and came to a conclusion. I think the Providence coach just overracted. He probably was in the heat of the moment and thought that the basket was not going to count. I just do not buy that the officials told the Providence coach anything. If the coach knew anything about the current rules, they have to look at the tape on any shot at the end of any period or half, if the shot is at the buzzer.

Peace

[Indy_Ref]

Originally posted by TriggerMN
Let's say a clock goes from 2.0 seconds to 1.9 seconds. We can see that. However, if said clock does not have tenths visible, the "full second" part of the clock will still say "1" at 1.9 seconds. Same situation here. The "tenths" digit will read "0" when there are still nine one-hundreths of a second remaining. Now, I think there's either 24 or 36 frames per second on film. When you slow it down frame-by-frame, this means there will be 3 or 4 frames AFTER the game clock reads zero, but BEFORE the red light comes on.

It took a long time, but they flat out nailed it.

Maybe we need to go to one-hundreths of a second on our shot clocks from now on!!

Although I understand the reasoning behind letting the officials look at the replay tape just to make sure they "get it right" at end-of-game situations, I don't have to like the fact that the NCAA is attempting to take out the human element in it --> that we, as officials, can & do fail at times no matter how good we are.

As the official who is responsible for the clock on a last second call, I can simply think to myself, "It doesn't matter what I call because I can just go to the bench to make sure I'm right."

What is down the road?? Will the NCAA turn to some form of optical over-court eye to make sure every single call is correct? Perhaps some form of eye will be installed as an experiment to call the whole game? I don't even want to think about it! Each & every official is different. We may do some of the same things, and see some/many of the things the same way, but each official has his/her own eye as to what should or should not be called on a court. For me, I never want to take officials like Welmer, Higgins, Donato, et al, off the court. Keep the human factor there!! Live or die by human judgment in these situations. If the official gets it right, then great! If the official doesn't, accept it as part of being human!

I, personally, could live with that. Too bad money-hungry organizations can't!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Indy_Ref


...Keep the human factor there!! Live or die by human judgment in these situations. If the official gets it right, then great! If the official doesn't, accept it as part of being human!

I, personally, could live with that. Too bad money-hungry organizations can't!

Indy, if I'm a coach making $1M+ and then endorsement/media/speech money on top of that I'm not so sure I would want the likes of Chuck ruining my career on a game deciding bad call. The monitor is good, there's enough "human element" left for us to discuss after the game, IMO.