Only two points?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Jurassic Referee:

As a Moderator of this Forum, it pains me to inform you that personal attacks in the Forum are not tolerated. If you can not conduct your posts in a gentlemanly manner, you should consider not posting at all.

Mark, I am going to continue posting. I am also going to post the same way that I always have. If I disagree with your personal rules interpretations, I'm gonna tell you about it, whether you like it or not. Don't confuse your status as a moderator with your status as a poster, Mark. You don't get any special privileges.

If someone wants to delete one of my posts for some reason, that's fine. But I don't think that anyone should delete anything because a post happens to disagree with you, or any other moderator.

[Mregor]

I'm pretty sure there would be contact on the attempt so I'd have 3 throws for that foul and 2 for the Tech for coming off the bench / illegal substitution / 6 players on the court or whatever flavor you want to call it. First have A1 shoot the 3 and then any member of A can shoot the T. If there was no contact, or even close to no contact, I'm not sure what I'd do. First, if I noticed it right away I guess I'd issue the T. Put some time on the clock if it's more than 1 second, and give them another chance by inbounding at the d-line. One of those two scenarios would have to fit. I just don't see it physically happening, B6 coming from in front of the table to block a shot after it was released without it even being close to contact. If he's such a good leaper, why isn't he in the game in the first place?

Mregor

[AK ref SE]

This is why I was thinking about not continuing to referee after this year. One person thinks there opinion is the only one that counts and just because they have more years ( I have 9 years) they are right. I am the most Junior official in my association, and not age wise either. We keep losing our new official because of the attitude that only one opinion counts. I can count on one hand the amount of officials in my area that are ready for Varsity HS ball. I have seen about 12 new referees come and go after one season.
If someones opinion is so great, their opinion is the only interpretation that is correct, then they should be doing it for the NCAA commitee or the NBA.
This post probably wont last...But I got to say my peace!

AK ref SE

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Haven't we had this question before?

Yep, a couple times. Here's the most recent thread:

http://www.officialforum.com/thread/7209

There was also a similar topic raised by "crew" in one of his GPS threads, but I can't locate it. . .

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by AK ref SE
This is why I was thinking about not continuing to referee after this year. One person thinks there opinion is the only one that counts and just because they have more years ( I have 9 years) they are right. I am the most Junior official in my association, and not age wise either. We keep losing our new official because of the attitude that only one opinion counts. I can count on one hand the amount of officials in my area that are ready for Varsity HS ball. I have seen about 12 new referees come and go after one season.
If someones opinion is so great, their opinion is the only interpretation that is correct, then they should be doing it for the NCAA commitee or the NBA.
This post probably wont last...But I got to say my peace!

AK ref SE

Why would you care what someone's opinion is? I mean really, how does that affect your ability to officiate or kill your desire? If that is the way you feel, you heart is not in it to begin with. Especially if you are worried about what someone might say here.

If you want a rules reference, use 2-3 which says, "The referee shall make decisions on any point not specifically covered in the rules." This situation is no where in the casebook and it does not say where it is in the rulebook on how to handle this. So if this happens (which no on says it has), I am doing what I feel is best.

And JR and Mark can argue until the cows come home. I am sure neither live in the same place and what decisions they make are not going to matter what the other individual thinks. And if that kind of thing ruffles your feathers, then you were not committed to officiating in the first place. Please do not take this as an attack, but to complain what someone thinks as the reason to stop officiating (when they live no where near you), you were not committed in the first place. If you stay in, we would love to have you. But there are guys every year that drop out. You will not be the first and certainly will not be the last.

Peace

[AK ref SE]

Rut,
Your right I have lost my desire. My point about the one opinion is always right is directed at my local area. But my post is in general about the attitude! And certain people wonder why we cant keep new officials!

AK ref SE

[Adam]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Over the years (32 years to be exact) I have had a sixth player run onto the court illegally, because he/she thought that they were supposed to be in the game. Everytime this has happened, my partner(s) and I have come to the conclusion that charging two technical fouls is overkill. If the official sees the player illegally enter the court, then this is the technical foul that should be charged. If the official does not see that player illegally enter the court but sees six players on the court, then charge the team with a technical foul for too many players. But it has been my belief and the opinion of many of my friends that two technical fouls are overkill. [/B]

A 2nd T may have been overkill in that situation, but I don't think it is here, Mark. I frankly don't care how we get there, but if B6 runs on the court and interferes with the shot, I'm shooting at least 4 free throws, possibly 5. If I tell the coach I've got one T for subbing without being beckoned and another for playing with 6 players, he doesn't have any complaint based on the rules. If he gets too lippy about it, we'll have 4 more for direct T's on the coach. I somehow doubt that he's going to challenge me too hard on it, and I'm willing to bet that player has seen his last seconds of playing time.

Regardless, Mark, the beef with your post is that you say flatly that the solution offered is incorrect, but don't provide a rules basis for that opinion, other than the stated opinion that giving two T's is overkill in a completely different situation. The situations aren't comparable on that basis.

Adam

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Over the years (32 years to be exact) I have had a sixth player run onto the court illegally, because he/she thought that they were supposed to be in the game. Everytime this has happened, my partner(s) and I have come to the conclusion that charging two technical fouls is overkill. If the official sees the player illegally enter the court, then this is the technical foul that should be charged. If the official does not see that player illegally enter the court but sees six players on the court, then charge the team with a technical foul for too many players. But it has been my belief and the opinion of many of my friends that two technical fouls are overkill. [/B]

If you don't have a rules reference, then how can you say that anyone else is wrong? You are giving your opinion only. That certainly doesn't mean that your opinion is automatically right.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 29th, 2003 at 01:20 PM] [/B][/QUOTE]


From reading the original post, I am going to assume that the poster wants the game officials to see B6 illegally enter the court. No lets break down the play. B6's illegally entering the court is a technical foul and the ball is dead immediately unless A1 is in the act of shooting or A1 has already released the ball for a try, then that ball does not become dead until the try is made or missed (continuous motion applies for these two conditions) or some other act causes the ball to become dead.

If an attempt or try is not involved in the play then the ball is dead and there cannot be a technical foul for more that five players on the court because the officials have already stopped the game for B6 illegally entering the court. The ball is dead (NFHS R6-S7-A7), play is stopped. Why would the game officials want to complicate the play by charging Team B with a technical foul for having six players on the court when the game has already been stopped for B6's technical foul for illegally entering the game. The ball remained alive because of the attempt, therefore charge B6 with a second technical foul for blocking A1's try (unsportsmanlike conduct).

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Snaqwells

A 2nd T may have been overkill in that situation, but I don't think it is here, Mark. I frankly don't care how we get there, but if B6 runs on the court and interferes with the shot, I'm shooting at least 4 free throws, possibly 5. If I tell the coach I've got one T for subbing without being beckoned and another for playing with 6 players, he doesn't have any complaint based on the rules. If he gets too lippy about it, we'll have 4 more for direct T's on the coach. I somehow doubt that he's going to challenge me too hard on it, and I'm willing to bet that player has seen his last seconds of playing time.

Regardless, Mark, the beef with your post is that you say flatly that the solution offered is incorrect, but don't provide a rules basis for that opinion, other than the stated opinion that giving two T's is overkill in a completely different situation. The situations aren't comparable on that basis.

Adam [/B]

Hold on a minute. I never said that you could not have two technical fouls. I agree that there are and should be two technical fouls. And they are illegally entering the court and unsportsmanlike conduct. It a very big stretch to charge Team B with a technical foul for six players on the court too. Remember, if the officials saw B6 enter the court illegally, then the ball is dead per NFHS R6-S7-A7.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by AK ref SE
Rut,
Your right I have lost my desire. My point about the one opinion is always right is directed at my local area. But my post is in general about the attitude! And certain people wonder why we cant keep new officials!

AK ref SE

I hope you can find something in your life that brings you joy. Because I will be damned if I stop officiating because of what some peers think about anything. I guess unless someone is where I am or where I am trying to go, that list of people I listen to is very small. Officiating is no different than any other job, hobby or passion. And I am sure if you had to, you would look the other way in those situations, why is officiating so much different?

Peace

[PAULK1]

Just to stir the pot a bit would anyone consider forfieting the game.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by PAULK1
Just to stir the pot a bit would anyone consider forfieting the game.

Yes. Because what happen makes a travesty out of the game. Now that would be the extreme, but I would want to give the offended team some way to win that game. I probably would give two Ts, but that is me. And if someone wants to disagree that is fine. I will worry about it when this happens, which it probably never will.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Hold on a minute. I never said that you could not have two technical fouls. I agree that there are and should be two technical fouls. And they are illegally entering the court and unsportsmanlike conduct. It a very big stretch to charge Team B with a technical foul for six players on the court too. Remember, if the officials saw B6 enter the court illegally, then the ball is dead per NFHS R6-S7-A7. [/B]

It's not a big stretch at all. You're correct with the ball becoming dead. However, if he hits the shot you gonna kill it? Not sure I would. Also, if you don't notice the player ran on until he interferes, the ball isn't dead.
I think a more likely non-foul scenario has B6 stealing the ball on a break-a-way rather than blocking a shot.
Regardless, I've got two T's, and I fail to see the importance of how I got there.
Technically, if the ball is dead, I'm not sure how you could justify an "unsporting act" if you can't justify blowing them for illegal entry AND playing with 6.

Adam

[Adam]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Yes. Because what happen makes a travesty out of the game. Now that would be the extreme, but I would want to give the offended team some way to win that game. I probably would give two Ts, but that is me. And if someone wants to disagree that is fine. I will worry about it when this happens, which it probably never will.

Peace

That was actually my first instinct. I'm comfortable with 4 free throws, though, via technical fouls (so the shooting coach can pick his best shooter.) If they can't find a shooter to hit 3 of 4 free throws, I won't feel bad if they lose.

[JeffTheRef]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Absolutely NOT!! Only two technical fouls and four free throws in my interpretation: illegally entering the court and unsportsmanlike conduct. Illegally entering the court and six players on the court really cannot be penalized for the same act, either you have one or the other but you really cannot have both.

MTD, Sr.

Maybe not. But where in the RULES does it say you can't charge fouls separately under 10-1-6 and 10-2-2?