double blood

missinglink · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 16, 2003, 09:01am

9th grade boys. 2 point game with 2.5 min to go and A1 and B1 both have blood on their uniforms. Partner (Referee) whistles and orders both to bench. Turns out both are bleeding from scratches and no, I don't know how we missed that mugging. Coach A calls a full to buy A1 back in, last time out. Ref is handling the other substitutions during the time out. Resumption of play and A1 and B1 return to floor during the same time out, cleaned and patched and ready to play. Game continues and it is a 1 point game with less than 30 seconds to play and Coach B calls for his last time out. Coach A stays in the box but the top of his head is coming off asking why B has a time out remaining when he had a bleeder also. Partner and I make eye contact and telepath a quick oh, crap. Ref concurs with coach A, charges an ex post facto time out to B and orders resumption of play. Coach B is convinced he has been the victim of a drive-by, steps way out of the box, verbalizes way too much and Bang, two shots for A, three point lead, ball OoB and game over. Ref explained to me later that it made sense to him for other player to come back on a time out provided A1 was patched in time and just spaced on the rule. Obviously I let him down on knowledge of the rule and then not stepping in front of Coach B quick enough. Man did we feel bad, stupid and weak.

Jurassic Referee · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 16, 2003, 09:17am

Quote:

Originally posted by missinglink
Coach A calls a full to buy A1 back in, last time out. Ref is handling the other substitutions during the time out. Resumption of play and A1 and B1 return to floor during the same time out, cleaned and patched and ready to play. Game continues and it is a 1 point game with less than 30 seconds to play and Coach B calls for his last time out. Coach A stays in the box but the top of his head is coming off asking why B has a time out remaining when he had a bleeder also. Partner and I make eye contact and telepath a quick oh, crap. Ref concurs with coach A, charges an ex post facto time out to B and orders resumption of play. Coach B is convinced he has been the victim of a drive-by, steps way out of the box, verbalizes way too much and Bang, two shots for A, three point lead, ball OoB and game over.

Oh, my!

Actually Coach B was right. Once the ball had become alive after B1 entered, B1 had become a legal player and you no longer can do anything about it. See casebook play 3.3.3SitB- it covers it. Please talk to your partner about this one- so that he doesn't do this again.

firedoc · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 16, 2003, 11:03am

In addition, the B coach does not have to call a timeout to get his player back in the game sooner. He may not have felt it was necessary. However, once the team A coach called timeout, the B coach is free to bring his player back in the game using the timeout taken by A. Team B should not be penalized for the decisions of team A.

ChuckElias · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 16, 2003, 11:11am

Quote:

Originally posted by firedoc
In addition, the B coach does not have to call a timeout to get his player back in the game sooner. He may not have felt it was necessary. However, once the team A coach called timeout, the B coach is free to bring his player back in the game using the timeout taken by A.

Oops!! Firedoc, take a look at 3-3-5.

IAABO_Ref · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 16, 2003, 11:43am

This happened in a game last week. A-1 has blood. The coach seeing that the official is going to send A-1 off the floor sends A-6 to the table for A-1. The official signals A-6 into the game. A coach then sees that A-1 only has the skinned his knee and then takes a time out. We get ready to put the ball into play and A-1 is on the floor. The other official goes over and tells the coach that A-1 cant return to the floor until the clock has started and A-6 needs to come back onto the floor. The coach isnt to happy and wants to know why we didnt tell him that before he took the time out (he never said anything other then time out). Well after the other team shoot two and got the ball and the coach had a seat next to A-1 the game went on.

wizard · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 16, 2003, 12:21pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by firedoc
In addition, the B coach does not have to call a timeout to get his player back in the game sooner. He may not have felt it was necessary. However, once the team A coach called timeout, the B coach is free to bring his player back in the game using the timeout taken by A.

Oops!! Firedoc, take a look at 3-3-5.

So are you saying that both coaches get charged with a time-out in this situation?

ChuckElias · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 16, 2003, 12:25pm

I'm saying read 3-3-5 and ask yourself if Team A's TO buys B1 back into the game.

wizard · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 16, 2003, 12:35pm

3-3-6 is even more accurate. It sreads like to get his own player back in, coach B will need to spend a TO. And the chances of this happening aren't that bad. Blood has a way of getting on more than one player. But be prepared to take some heat when you tell coach B that he has to burn a TO himself instead of "piggybacking" off of coach A.

ChuckElias · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 16, 2003, 01:08pm

You're right, wizard. 3-3-5 deals with an injured player and 3-3-6 deals with a bleeding player. But the result is the same. A's TO does NOT buy B1 back into the game.

Dan_ref · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 16, 2003, 01:15pm

Quote:

Originally posted by IAABO_Ref
This happened in a game last week. A-1 has blood. The coach seeing that the official is going to send A-1 off the floor sends A-6 to the table for A-1. The official signals A-6 into the game. A coach then sees that A-1 only has the skinned his knee and then takes a time out. We get ready to put the ball into play and A-1 is on the floor. The other official goes over and tells the coach that A-1 cant return to the floor until the clock has started and A-6 needs to come back onto the floor. The coach isnt to happy and wants to know why we didnt tell him that before he took the time out (he never said anything other then time out). Well after the other team shoot two and got the ball and the coach had a seat next to A-1 the game went on.

Seems overly officious if you ask me. Let A6 come out, get A1 back in & play.

Camron Rust · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 16, 2003, 03:34pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

Originally posted by IAABO_Ref
This happened in a game last week. A-1 has blood. The coach seeing that the official is going to send A-1 off the floor sends A-6 to the table for A-1. The official signals A-6 into the game. A coach then sees that A-1 only has the skinned his knee and then takes a time out. We get ready to put the ball into play and A-1 is on the floor. The other official goes over and tells the coach that A-1 cant return to the floor until the clock has started and A-6 needs to come back onto the floor. The coach isnt to happy and wants to know why we didnt tell him that before he took the time out (he never said anything other then time out). Well after the other team shoot two and got the ball and the coach had a seat next to A-1 the game went on.

Seems overly officious if you ask me. Let A6 come out, get A1 back in & play.

Coach A tried to save the timeout by sending A6 in for A1....thinking that A1 wouldn't have been ready anyway. He made that judement. He doesn't get the benefit of putting A1 back in after realizing that A1 was really OK. They either get to sub or take the timeout.

Dan_ref · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 16, 2003, 03:56pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

Originally posted by IAABO_Ref
This happened in a game last week. A-1 has blood. The coach seeing that the official is going to send A-1 off the floor sends A-6 to the table for A-1. The official signals A-6 into the game. A coach then sees that A-1 only has the skinned his knee and then takes a time out. We get ready to put the ball into play and A-1 is on the floor. The other official goes over and tells the coach that A-1 cant return to the floor until the clock has started and A-6 needs to come back onto the floor. The coach isnt to happy and wants to know why we didnt tell him that before he took the time out (he never said anything other then time out). Well after the other team shoot two and got the ball and the coach had a seat next to A-1 the game went on.

Seems overly officious if you ask me. Let A6 come out, get A1 back in & play.

Coach A tried to save the timeout by sending A6 in for A1....thinking that A1 wouldn't have been ready anyway. He made that judement. He doesn't get the benefit of putting A1 back in after realizing that A1 was really OK. They either get to sub or take the timeout.

They did take the timeout, the way I read it. Which is why I would have let A1 back in.

missinglink · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 16, 2003, 05:08pm

...Actually Coach B was right. Once the ball had become alive after B1 entered, B1 had become a legal player and you no longer can do anything about it. See casebook play 3.3.3SitB- it covers it......

....In addition, the B coach does not have to call a timeout to get his player back in the game sooner. He may not have felt it was necessary. However, once the team A coach called timeout, the B coach is free to bring his player back in the game using the timeout taken by A. Team B should not be penalized for the decisions of team A.....

Thanks for the pointers to the casebook above and to the rulebook reference. In my research I found more info and and for others who would like further direction on requirement for dual time outs, Situation six, last year's (2002-2003) NFHS BB Rules Interpretions is definitive:"....if the officials direct both players to leave the game, both teams must call a TO to keep the respective players in the game....."

bob jenkins · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 16, 2003, 05:32pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
They did take the timeout, the way I read it. Which is why I would have let A1 back in.

Except they didn't take the TO until after A1 had been subbed for. So, A1 now can't enter until the clock has run. IOW, the time to allow the "injury TO" has passed -- it's just a regular TO and all the regular TO and sbustitution rules apply.

If A had taken the TO before the sub, then A1 could return, or they could sub if A1 wasn't ready.

wizard · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 16, 2003, 05:41pm

Quote:

Originally posted by missinglink
In addition, the B coach does not have to call a timeout to get his player back in the game sooner. He may not have felt it was necessary. However, once the team A coach called timeout, the B coach is free to bring his player back in the game using the timeout taken by A. Team B should not be penalized for the decisions of team A.....

Sez who?