knowing the rules

[just another ref]

Last night I attended local varsity games as a spectator.
Boys game was great. Home team scored 39 points in the first 3 quarters and then scored 39 in the 4th quarter alone to come from 13 down and force overtime. On the tip to start overtime the visitors wound up with a breakaway.
Guard for the home team gave the shooter a little shove as he went up for the layup. Whistle, basket good, intentional foul. Home coach briefly questioned the call of intentional but I thought this was pretty obvious and apparently so did he so it was quickly dropped. Lane cleared, the shooter stepped to the line and was awarded...
3 free throws. A little buzz went through the crowd, I think, but nobody, including home coach, threw a fit like I thought someone would/should. Several people asked me, "How can this be?" I said, "It can't. They screwed up." Maybe I missed the signal. Did he call a foul and then a T? Nope, they inbounded the ball at the spot of the foul. I went to the locker room after the game and asked what the deal was. The explanation: You have to remember there was 1 shot for the foul on the made basket and 2 for the intentional. I nearly had an attack. I answered quickly, "Guys this is wrong." They were unconvinced, at first. I pushed the deal pointing out that the ONLY time 3 free throws are awarded for a single infraction are on an unsuccessful 3 point attempt. They wavered and one of the guys, obviously flustered, said, "Okay, thanks, I'll have to look that up." The other guy later said that he realized that we were right. These guys are from the same association that I am, I have partnered with both. Both of them have been officials for a long time. I have 2 questions. Am I the only one who is shocked that 2 veteran officials could make a mistake of this magnitude? (and not be called on it by the coach) Was I wrong to go into the locker room and ask them about it, and then push them on it? If I had done this, I would want somebody to tell me, the quicker, the better.

[Grail]

Unless this is an expected behavior by your association, or you were there as an evaluator, you had not business in the locker room. When you are there as a spectator, do just that.

As for not understanding how 2 vets could blow that call, I agree. They should no the rules.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by just another ref
Am I the only one who is shocked that 2 veteran officials could make a mistake of this magnitude? (and not be called on it by the coach)

I'm not shocked. Disappointed, obviously, b/c you'd hope that all officials would know all the rules all the time. But that's just not realistic. Not all officials are as conscientious about their rule study as the officials who come to this site. And as many officials gain more experience, they rely on that experience more than they rely on true knowledge of the rules. So when something happens that is outside of their experience, it's a crap shoot as to whether they'll get it right.

There are some officials, even on this board, who will say that it doesn't really matter b/c they were able to convince the coach without causing a stir and so what's the problem. They had showed great authority and confidence on the court and it served them very very well in this case. So don't make an issue of one FT.

Originally posted by Grail
Unless this is an expected behavior by your association, or you were there as an evaluator, you had not business in the locker room. When you are there as a spectator, do just that.

I have to say that I disagree with this. When I do a game, I encourage any younger official to join my crew in the locker for both our pre-game and our post-game. In the post-game, I always ask if there are any questions about anything that happened. Usually, this is a chance for me to teach. But if it turns out to be a chance for me to learn, so much the better.

[TriggerMN]

You're right most of the time, Chuck, but I'm with Grail on this one. Unless you were invited, you shouldn't have gone into the locker room, even though you are an official yourself. If you truly are simply a "spectator" for that game, you have no jurisdiction, and no right to be in the locker room.

Here's what I would have done: Go ahead and telephone the guys the next day and ask them how they came about making the call. Then go ahead and let them know the proper rule in the book.

To me, the locker room is off limits to "spectators," whether they be friends, fellow officials, or Jennifer Aniston. Although the latter would be tough to turn down.

[RookieDude]

I think it is perfectly all right to have fellow officials meet in the locker room after a game. This is a good time to discuss game situations while they are fresh in everybody's mind. (Of course it is always nice to meet at the local watering hole afterward to discuss the game also.)
Now, if you are a younger official and going into a Veteran's locker room:

Don't go into the locker room to embarass the officials that did the game. If you have a question about a call, keep it to yourself unless they ask you how you saw it. Then maybe say you saw it a little differently "up" where you were at.

If you have a question regarding a rule, you might ask them about the situation. If you disagree, politely say that you thought it was such and such and that you would look it up later. Don't get into a big argument about it...even if you are right you won't come across well to the Vets.

Chuck, I don't know about you...but there have been times in my career that I have missed a call. The last thing I want in the locker room after the game is some fresh faced new guy telling me how I blew it. We can talk about it sure...but to come in telling me "you are wrong" isn't politically correct around these parts.

Also, Just another ref, watch yourself while you are sitting in the stands watching a game. People will look to you to see your reactions to different calls. Try to stay neutral. I wouldn't suggest saying "They blew it" to fans around you. Heck, someday you might actually blow a call...do you want your peers sitting in the stands telling everybody about it? Do you want the Vets to know you are in the stands telling people how they are "blowing it"?

Just a little food for thought.

RD

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by TriggerMN
To me, the locker room is off limits to "spectators," whether they be friends, fellow officials, or Jennifer Aniston. Although the latter would be tough to turn down.

You don't think having Jennifer Aniston in the locker room at half-time would take you out of your game?!

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by rainmaker

You don't think having Jennifer Aniston in the locker room at half-time would take you out of your game?!

Around here, we have our half-time before the over time. Maybe it's different in Oregon?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle

Around here, we have our half-time before the over time. Maybe it's different in Oregon?

Sorry, bits, my brain is fried. I don't get the joke. Perhaps I should be glad?

[WinterWillie]

In a study done between officials and coaches, it was determined that 92% of officials knew the rules as to only 88% of the coaches.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by WinterWillie
In a study done between officials and coaches, it was determined that 92% of officials knew the rules as to only 88% of the coaches.

Willie, this is a very vague claim. What does it mean that they "knew the rules"? They could pass an IAABO test? They completed a class of some sort?

My guess is that the percentage of coaches who know the rule under discussion in the original play is much much lower than 88%.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by TriggerMN
If you truly are simply a "spectator" for that game, you have no jurisdiction, and no right to be in the locker room.

Maybe this is one of those regional things, but around here, we encourage any official at a game to go to the locker room afterward to talk to the officials. Spectator, or otherwise.

Here's what I would have done: Go ahead and telephone the guys the next day and ask them how they came about making the call. Then go ahead and let them know the proper rule in the book.

I have no problem with this approach, either.

To me, the locker room is off limits to "spectators," whether they be friends, fellow officials, or Jennifer Aniston.

Jennifer Aniston is welcome in any locker room that I ever find myself in.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by RookieDude
Don't go into the locker room to embarass the officials that did the game. If you have a question about a call, keep it to yourself unless they ask you how you saw it. Then maybe say you saw it a little differently "up" where you were at.

If you have a question regarding a rule, you might ask them about the situation. If you disagree, politely say that you thought it was such and such

Maybe I didn't read the original post closely enough, Rook, but it sounded to me like JAR handled it just the way you say to do it. He wasn't trying to embarass them, but he knew that they'd gotten it wrong. He asked about the situation, and received a very wrong explanation. The only thing he did differently from your post was that he gave the correct ruling, instead of saying, "Hmmmm. I didn't realize that. I'll have to look it up when I get home." I will agree with you and say that he could've simply planted the seed that way and then followed up with a phone call later. But it seems to me that JAR did not try to embarass anybody, asked a legitimate question, and got an obviously wrong answer.

Chuck, I don't know about you...but there have been times in my career that I have missed a call.

Hmmmm. Let me think back. . . Missed a call. . . missed a call? Nope, I'm not sure what you mean by that. Of course, I've missed a call!

The last thing I want in the locker room after the game is some fresh faced new guy telling me how I blew it. We can talk about it sure...but to come in telling me "you are wrong" isn't politically correct around these parts.

I agree with you, but again, it doesn't sound to me like that's what happened.

[Forksref]

Me thinks General Westmoreland counted the officials.

[just another ref]

Originally posted by RookieDude
Now, if you are a younger official and going into a Veteran's locker room:

Don't go into the locker room to embarass the officials that did the game. If you have a question about a call, keep it to yourself unless they ask you how you saw it. Then maybe say you saw it a little differently "up" where you were at.

If you have a question regarding a rule, you might ask them about the situation. If you disagree, politely say that you thought it was such and such and that you would look it up later. Don't get into a big argument about it...even if you are right you won't come across well to the Vets.

First of all, I am not a "young fresh-faced guy." The two guys calling the game and I are all in the 40ish? age group.
They have been registered officials in the association longer than I have but I consider us all to be roughly on the same level as officials. One of these two guys actually
called me a couple of days before the test to ask for some study guide answers, so I suppose that means he has some respect for my opinion.

Chuck, I don't know about you...but there have been times in my career that I have missed a call. The last thing I want in the locker room after the game is some fresh faced new guy telling me how I blew it. We can talk about it sure...but to come in telling me "you are wrong" isn't politically correct around these parts.

When you say missed a call, I think of a question of judgment. (Boy I can't believe you called a blocking foul on that guy when the dribbler elbowed him in the face.) I wouldn't discuss a judgment call in that situation unless I was asked. The deal here was a black and white issue. I asked the question first to be sure I knew what the call had been, and then pointed out, perhaps not as subtly as I could have, that a mistake had been made. This was not a debatable point. As I said before, I want to know when I make a mistake of this magnitude. I still can't believe the coach didn't say anything. As for political correctness, it's pretty hard to come by around here.

Also, Just another ref, watch yourself while you are sitting in the stands watching a game. People will look to you to see your reactions to different calls. Try to stay neutral. I wouldn't suggest saying "They blew it" to fans around you. Heck, someday you might actually blow a call...do you want your peers sitting in the stands telling everybody about it? Do you want the Vets to know you are in the stands telling people how they are "blowing it"?

I apply the same deal here when it comes to judgment calls.
I try to be pretty diplomatic. "Did you think that was a foul?" "Oh, I don't know, it could have gone either way."
Often I defend the guys on the court. But this mistake was obvious to A LOT of people. They asked me what the rule was and I told them. They could then draw their own conclusion.

[JRutledge]

I can only speak for my area. It is very acceptable in the circles I officiate, ot go in the locker room and ask questions about what took place on the floor. It helps us all when we discuss those things, not matter how long you have been officiating. We all become better officials by having other officials "have our back" if you will.

And if anyone is surprised that veteran officials missed a call, then I guess they must think we are not human beings. Of course we miss calls and miss rules from time to time. But the game of basketball is not a sport where the rules are challenged that much.

I also think Chuck once again does not get it. No one that I have ever known on this board has ever said that "presentation" was the most important thing to officiating. But it will help you out much more than being a Rulebook official that only looks at the letter of the law and not the common sense or reality of how those rules should be applied. This is not one of these times where that is at issue. These officials screwed up a rule, maybe because it has never happen and we are human. Basketball is a game of judgement, not rules. It is how you call fouls and violations that mean more in this game. Why, because the fouls and violations can be disputed every time. I cannot speak for anyone else, but I have called my share of intentional fouls, but I have never called one or been in a position to call one where a 3 point shot was taken. Sometimes the best way to "own" a rule, is to screw it up first.

Peace