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Old Wed Nov 15, 2000, 10:01am
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Question

1-1/2 min. left in a 1 pt JV girls game. Free throw made, ball handed to A1, A1 kneels down to tie shoe, co-official (U) ask if she wants a time out, she says NO, she is eventually called for a 5 sec. violation. (VS coach) not JV coach steps out on floor during time out and drills officials trying to to get (R) to go against the (U). Officials stayed calm, moments later, (U) goes to VS coach and admits he made a mistakes. I know we shouldn't have allowed the VS coach to get involved. Next the VS coach inquires about the call again, wants (R) to reverse call as a correctable error. I don't think play had resumed. I know we normally stop play on dead ball and allow/encourage players to tie shoes, but . . .
Q: Was this actually a bad call or just a mistake in judgment?
Q: If bad call, is it a correctable error by (R)?
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Old Wed Nov 15, 2000, 11:25am
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First of all, I treat the varsity coach like an assistant during JV games. Therefore, he can come out and ask questions like, "where will the ball become live?", but if he wants to argue or demean me then he is getting a T. R cannot correct U's decission on this. Bad judgement? I don't think so. She should have tied her shoes after throwing it in or before the ball being handed. Since it was after a free throw, she could have had the official delay the ball becomeing live before the shot.
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Old Wed Nov 15, 2000, 12:11pm
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First, if I could jump on my soapbox...It is OUr responsibility to ensure that the contest is conducted in a safe manner. Personally, whether they request a quick TO or not, if there is a dead ball, I call an offical TO and I make them tie their shoes. I would rather be safe than sorry, and I would be upset if I knew they were untied and the kid hurt him/herself.

Second, in this situation, I don't see how you can over rule this play. 1) It is not a correctable error. 2) In that officials mind, he offered, then was refused a TO by the player. The Varsity coach should have SEEN the count by the official, and called a TO himself. It might be questionable, I bet that ref never does this again, and it probably "looked" bad, but I see nothing wrong rule wise with what happened, except I would have T'd up the V coach. Nothing ticks me off faster than a higher level coach who comes down a level and thinks he know all.

My new maxim is " I will listen to Batman, but I had better not hear Robin".
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Old Wed Nov 15, 2000, 12:21pm
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I agree with Brian - inject a little common sense into the situation. When the official saw the player stop to tie her shoe, he should have stopped the game. It is simple, effective, and prevents problems (and potential injuries). Of course, if this happens a few times with the same player, you should find another course of action - such as asking her to leave the game until she learns how to tie her shoes correctly.

Nothing irks ME more than an official who is so blinded by the rules that he can't use some common sense. I refereed a game once where my partner was thrown the ball by a player after a made basket. Instead of simply catching it and throwing it back to the player (the player was confused, obviously), he jumped out of the way! Continuing his 5-second count while the player chased the ball! ARGH!!! Fortunately, she got it in on time because if he had called a violation, we were going to have a problem.
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Old Wed Nov 15, 2000, 12:21pm
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Lightbulb I would have...

Quote:
Originally posted by TexasRef
1-1/2 min. left in a 1 pt JV girls game. Free throw made, ball handed to A1, A1 kneels down to tie shoe, co-official (U) ask if she wants a time out, she says NO, she is eventually called for a 5 sec. violation. (VS coach) not JV coach steps out on floor during time out and drills officials trying to to get (R) to go against the (U). Officials stayed calm, moments later, (U) goes to VS coach and admits he made a mistakes. I know we shouldn't have allowed the VS coach to get involved. Next the VS coach inquires about the call again, wants (R) to reverse call as a correctable error. I don't think play had resumed. I know we normally stop play on dead ball and allow/encourage players to tie shoes, but . . .
Q: Was this actually a bad call or just a mistake in judgment?
Q: If bad call, is it a correctable error by (R)?
let her tie her shoe. It did not seem that she was "delaying".
IMO, the official, that asked her if she wanted a TO, just goofed. I, always during a dead ball, or lull (subjective), call an official's TO to fix a lace.
This is not a correctable error, by rule. It may have been fixed.
Perhaps the rules should be that all shoe bows be tied with a "Square Knot".
mick
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Old Wed Nov 15, 2000, 05:59pm
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This is a great situation to see what partners do when a mistake is made. The crews I work with are so comfortable with each other that I would have no problem coming to my partner (s) and say "let her tie her shoe". I stop games fairly often when I see an unsafe situation. Untied shoe could be an accident looking for a place to happen. If that had been my game, I would not have tried to over turn my partner but I would have discussed it with him. Our crew has learned to leave whatever ego we have in the dressing room. Last night we had a difference of opinion has to who hit the ball last. My partner came to me told me what he saw, I thought he was wrong, it was my line, but I nodded to him and changed my call. I could have been wrong and he was 100% sure. By the way he was in great position to see what I may not have seen. No one said a word.
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Old Wed Nov 15, 2000, 09:29pm
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What?

I must be in the minority here, but I believe that the official did what was best. You cannot make up rules as you go along. If the player did not ask for a timeout, then none should be granted. You give the ball to the player, then if that player uses up the 5 seconds, too bad!!! It is not common sense to allow a player to tie their shoes. Are we going to allow players to stop play all the time because they need to tie there shoes?
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Old Wed Nov 15, 2000, 10:18pm
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Question

I really don't see any harm in reinforcing safety during a dead ball. I'm not advocating stopping the game during play (like some rec league refs do around here) in a JV girls game, but you do need to take the level of play into account. Bottom line - if this happens once or twice in a game, no advantage/disadvantage occurs.
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Old Thu Nov 16, 2000, 01:06am
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Thumbs up That is not safety

What has that have to do with safety? If you hand the ball to the player to throw the ball in, they cannot do whatever they want. They can call a timeout, but I am not stopping play in the middle of action for safety, unless by rule it is warranted. This is not that situation. If a kid looses his/her shoe during action of dribbling the ball, you do not stop play at that moment just so they can put back on their shoe. There has to be some other things at play. I think even asking if they want a timeout was a bit much. Safety is one thing, but lets not create safety concerns just because of a shoe not being tied.


Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
I really don't see any harm in reinforcing safety during a dead ball. I'm not advocating stopping the game during play (like some rec league refs do around here) in a JV girls game, but you do need to take the level of play into account. Bottom line - if this happens once or twice in a game, no advantage/disadvantage occurs.
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Old Thu Nov 16, 2000, 08:48am
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If there is a dead ball why would you not make that player tie their shoe? Just because the rule book doesn't say you have to, it is common sense. If that kid take a face digger and loses 3 teeth, you could be held responsible. The way officials are getting sued these days, I am not going to take the chance.

Everyone thinks the "tuck-in-the-jersy" rule is to stop showboating, but it was for safety.

Rut- If a plaer dislodges a contact are you going to make that team take a full TO? It is no different than a untied shoe, and unless it repeatedly happens, where is the disadavntage.

I had a game a few years ago whre we had one kid who kept asking to tie his shoes. I told the coach during a TO, that the next time he comes on the floor there had better be tape on the shoe. Problem solved, no disruption to the game, and I'm sure Nike got a refund on thier ad dollars for the one shoe that was covered.

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Old Thu Nov 16, 2000, 01:39pm
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Who handed the thrower the ball after the made free throw? If the official did, why? If another player did or she got the ball herself after the made FT, fine. The ball is live when at the disposal of the thrower, so the count is going to start.

What does this picture look like? she's outside the end line and in position to make the throw-in, looks down and sees her shoe is untied, refuses an offer to take the time out (probably because she doesn't know she needs one or that the coach won't like it), and just lets the ball go so she can tie her shoe while the official is making a visible 5-count? Is this funny or am I missing something? Someone else mentioned the coach. Was he/she asleep too? Does this kind of thing happen at the JV girls level a lot?

It seems clear the trail official could have fixed this situation pretty easily by simply calling time out, getting the ball and letting her tie up the laces. We oughta be able to pick our battles better than to make a mess out of this one.
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Old Thu Nov 16, 2000, 04:56pm
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Re: That is not safety

Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
What has that have to do with safety? If you hand the ball to the player to throw the ball in, they cannot do whatever they want. They can call a timeout, but I am not stopping play in the middle of action for safety, unless by rule it is warranted.
First, let me say that player safety is the primary importance of having rules and officiating. Consider this, B1 has the ball and a team A player gets seriously injured, I hope that you call an injury timeout. This is not about losing a shoe, we're talking about tripping or twisting an ankle, etc.

If you are against the time-out, I don't see why there can't be an inadvertent whistle. The clock would then stop for an official reason, and the player can tie her shoe.
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Old Thu Nov 16, 2000, 06:53pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stevan
What does this picture look like? she's outside the end line and in position to make the throw-in, looks down and sees her shoe is untied, refuses an offer to take the time out (probably because she doesn't know she needs one or that the coach won't like it), and just lets the ball go so she can tie her shoe while the official is making a visible 5-count? Is this funny or am I missing something?
That's not what happened in the original post and completely out of context. It's a different situation and should be handled differently.

For anyone with any common sense AND understanding of the game, you let the girl tie her shoe.

No wonder we catch so much crap!
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Old Fri Nov 17, 2000, 01:32am
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Angry Safety?

What are you guys talking about? What in the world does this have to do with safety? I really think you are way too concerned about litigation. For your information we can get sued for anything, and I am not talking about being an official. It is a safety issue because a kid was too stupid to notice that his shoe was not tied, give me a break. Of course you allow kids to tie shoes that are not, but you do not stop the game because in the middle of a live ball a kid want to tie his or her shoe. I can tell that you could not be doing any real smart coaches, because the higher you go they try to fool you and use anything to get an advantage. If I was a coach in some of your games, I would allow my shoe to be untied so I could get a couple of seconds to see what the offense or defense is doing. Safety is one thing, but this is not a safety issue. If it is, it should have been noticed before the ball was put at the disposal of the player, not after. It is too late at that point.
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Old Fri Nov 17, 2000, 02:06am
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Lightbulb What's so different?

Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by Stevan
What does this picture look like? she's outside the end line and in position to make the throw-in, looks down and sees her shoe is untied, refuses an offer to take the time out (probably because she doesn't know she needs one or that the coach won't like it), and just lets the ball go so she can tie her shoe while the official is making a visible 5-count? Is this funny or am I missing something?
That's not what happened in the original post and completely out of context. It's a different situation and should be handled differently.

For anyone with any common sense AND understanding of the game, you let the girl tie her shoe.

No wonder we catch so much crap!
What's wrong with trying to visualize this scene in order to try to make some sense out of it? Can you tie your shoe holding a basketball? If the trail official HAD handled the situation with some common sense AND understanding of the game and let the girl tie her shoe as I suggested we avoid the whole crap with the varsity coach and the melee that followed. (Did you read that part?)

Somehow I get the feeling you didn't understand the what I was trying to communicate. I'm sure the original post sender knows his partner got them in trouble for a situation that should have never happened.
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