Correctible Error?

[JRutledge]

I had a coach (varsity) tell me the 5 second count does not start until the player slaps the ball. Now am I suppose to give them the benefit of the doubt if one of her players thought that was a rule? How far are we going to take this?

Originally posted by BktBallRef

That's not what happened in the original post and completely out of context. It's a different situation and should be handled differently.

For anyone with any common sense AND understanding of the game, you let the girl tie her shoe.

No wonder we catch so much crap!

[Gary Brendemuehl]

Originally posted by JRutledge
They can call a timeout, but I am not stopping play in the middle of action for safety, unless by rule it is warranted.

I thought you said judgement was important? You've recently posted several statements downplaying the importance of rules and promoting the importance of judgement. Now, when you disagree with someone else's judgement, you hide behind a rule!

[JRutledge]

Do you understand officiating? You must not, because where I officiate, if you do some stupid thing like call a timeout on the basis of safety after you give the ball to a player out of bounds, you might get a call from your assignor. There is nothing that I am aware of that this is even a safety issue. Of course if you see a kid does not have his/her shoe tied, and you see it before the ball becomes live, ask them to tie the shoe, I have no problem with that. But I do recall things about jerseys, numbers sizes and lettering are all in the rulebook. But how many of you here took a ruler and measured if the jerseys were legal or not? Did you last year tell kids to remove socks that had 2 manufacturing logos on them? How many of you stopped a game because there was not clear line where the logo was at in the center court? They are in the rulebook, but common sense usually wins out, because if it did not, you are really asking for trouble? Do what you want, but I believe that that would not be acceptable in the areas I officiate. We had a debate on the use of the resume-play procedure a few weeks ago in association meetings, it is in the rulebook, but do you think there was not a debate on the application and when to apply the rule, I think you can answer that yourself.

Originally posted by Gary Brendemuehl

I thought you said judgement was important? You've recently posted several statements downplaying the importance of rules and promoting the importance of judgement. Now, when you disagree with someone else's judgement, you hide behind a rule!

[Gary Brendemuehl]

Originally posted by JRutledge
...where I officiate, if you do some stupid thing like call a timeout on the basis of safety after you give the ball to a player out of bounds, you might get a call from your assignor.

Calling a timeout on the basis of safety is stupid? I guess I'm glad I live/coach/ref where people think that safety is smart, not stupid.

[Jerry Baldwin]

I see two issues here. One of safety and one of not stopping the game to prevent an accident. Shucks, we just started wearing BB shoes last year in Arkansas. Jay must have talented players. Most JV games or JHS games, the kids cannot dribble and chew gum at the same time.

I have seen, not often, a kid step on his own shoe lace and take a spill. I will try to prevent that, if I can. I have shut down a game when a player was obviously hurt even if the other team was driving for the basket, not often. My expainination to the coach was "would you want me to stop the game if that was your player hurt"?

Recently on a rebound two players from the same team came together, result a big cut under one eye. Because I stop the came immediately and got a towel, there were only a few drops of blood to deal with and the coach got a compress on the cut. Game delayed some but so what, I am not paid by the hour. Player safety is always on my mind. If that was my daughter playing a non contact sport like BB, I would hope to have officials on the floor that care about safety. And yes I think an untied shoe lace could be a hazzard.

Sorry thems my views and I'm sticking to'm.

[JRutledge]

I am glad too. Because I feel to think that stopping a game in the middle just because an untied shoe is very stupid. I guess you would stop play just because a kid made a move and lost the shoe and reacted by going back and getting the shoe without the ball. What are you going to do, give the ball back to the player's team because he/she wanted to tie their shoe? Be my guest on that one!!!! I do know this, you would have to T me up for that silly decision!!!!


You have every right to your opinion, and I do not want you to feel that you have that right, but in my opinion an untied shoe is NOT a safety issue on its face value. The official should have noticed that before he handed the ball to the player. I think the official did the right thing by asking for a timeout, but the player decided not too, all bets are off at that point. I am not looking for your approval, that is my opinion and I am sticking to that!!

Originally posted by Gary Brendemuehl

Calling a timeout on the basis of safety is stupid? I guess I'm glad I live/coach/ref where people think that safety is smart, not stupid.

[Bradley Batt]

I guess you would stop play just because a kid made a move and lost the shoe and reacted by going back and getting the shoe without the ball.

I did this last night. Granted - it wasn't the player with the ball, but a defensive player. As no one was on a fast break, making a lay-up, etc. - I stopped play and let the player put his shoe back on (since he was about to in about 5 seconds).

Is that wrong? I didn't think so. Again, it is a safety issue - it seemed silly so let the game go on and let the player fend for himself. We would stop the game for an injured player (had two of those last night too!), for someone's glasses flying off, etc.

Again, if there is not imminent danger of the player being hurt more, or he is not badly hurt, we wait until their is a good place to stop the game. Otherwise we stop immediately. I don't see how it impacts the game negatively.

[PAULK1]

In the original situation this all happened after a free throw and then the ball was handed to the player(by who?)
The time to get this shoe tied was before the last free throw, sounds like neither official was checking the players
prior to this. If the it was the official who handed the ball to the girl he should have blown his whistle and let this player tie their shoe I can see no advantage gained either way at this time. Did this official allow for extra time in his count since he was conducting a Q & A with the thrower in? If there was no pressure on the ball and this was a uncontested throw in why not stop and let this player tie their shoe. There might be some circumstances when this would not be possible (contested throw in and the count running out) where you would penalize the defense. In these cases you may just want to see what happens and get the shoe at the next opportunity. I find very disturbing that some here think its ok to talk a player out of violations and fouls but will not take the time to prevent injuries when it has no bearing on the play.

[JRutledge]

Every situation is different and I cannot really say for sure unless I am in the situation. But we do have a provision in the rules that states that we do not stop the play if a defensive player is injured until his/her team bascially gets the ball back or I believe until a fast break is stopped. It is just in my opinion that a untied shoe is not necessarily a safety issue. I would depends on the shoe and laces to be honest. Some laces might not be long at all, that could play a big part. You can do what you want and you have the right to your opinion, but I really think in the bigger scheme of things, there are bigger fish to fry. But again this is usually rare situation. Laces outside of the pants can be a safety issue, but I am not going to stop live ball play just because they are hanging either. You wait until the next dead ball, then handle it. I find nothing wrong with that, but that is me. I feel sometimes as officials we try to find things to make decisions on, every thing is not so tragic or if not handled is going to cause catasophic consequences. If you are worried about being sued, you are in the wrong business. You can get sued for things that you actually call, that is why NF have insurance and NASO offers insurance too.

[Hoosier]

If I understand the play correctly, this occurred after a made free throw. Therefore, the official should not be handing the ball to the player, and the clock is not running. The delay of tying a shoe is not going to affect anyone except for the offense since it will allow the defense to adequately set up. You are also correct in the fact that you did have the right to call a 5 second violation because the ball was at there was adequate time for the ball to be at the thrower's disposal. I think common sense would prevail here though, because the offensive team is at a loss because their thrower did not throw the ball in quickly.