Foul or no call?

[Tom M.]

This situation occurred at a women's college game on Saturday. A1 on offense recieves a dump down pass in the low post. The defender, B1, is off balance and out of position. As A1, now with the ball, turns her shoulders and arms to make her normal offensive move to the basket she strikes B1 in the face with her elbow/arm. The contact is hard and A1 continues and lays the ball in. B1 is momentarily stunned but moves up the floor as play continues.

I was in the lead postion and saw the play clearly and had it as a "no call". The defender was clearly out of postion and off balance. I felt I could not reward the defense with a foul. The contact was not intentional nor did A1 swing her elbows.

After the game my partner said he saw the same thing and said he came close to calling a foul but didn't because it a 20 point game at the time with Team A losing. But he felt it was a player control foul. Comments.

[NC BBRef]

It sounds like a good "no call" to me. The defender had not established legal guarding position based on how you described it.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

I saw the same thing but didn't feel the defense was good. Therefore I passed on this call. Thanks for not making it right in front of me, coach would have chewed our asses.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Tom M.
This situation occurred at a women's college game on Saturday. A1 on offense recieves a dump down pass in the low post. The defender, B1, is off balance and out of position. As A1, now with the ball, turns her shoulders and arms to make her normal offensive move to the basket she strikes B1 in the face with her elbow/arm. The contact is hard and A1 continues and lays the ball in. B1 is momentarily stunned but moves up the floor as play continues.

I was in the lead postion and saw the play clearly and had it as a "no call". The defender was clearly out of postion and off balance. I felt I could not reward the defense with a foul. The contact was not intentional nor did A1 swing her elbows.

Since the contact is elbow to face, legal guarding position is not a factor in the decision. It sounds like incidental contact to me in that A1 didn't gain an advantage through it. B1 just had their face in the wrong place...because they were off balance.

[ChuckElias]

I'm with Camron. Had this same situation in my game Saturday, only it was the point guard with the ball out at the 3-point arc. No call.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Tom M.
This situation occurred at a women's college game on Saturday. A1 on offense recieves a dump down pass in the low post. The defender, B1, is off balance and out of position. As A1, now with the ball, turns her shoulders and arms to make her normal offensive move to the basket she strikes B1 in the face with her elbow/arm. The contact is hard and A1 continues and lays the ball in. B1 is momentarily stunned but moves up the floor as play continues.

I was in the lead postion and saw the play clearly and had it as a "no call". The defender was clearly out of postion and off balance. I felt I could not reward the defense with a foul. The contact was not intentional nor did A1 swing her elbows.

After the game my partner said he saw the same thing and said he came close to calling a foul but didn't because it a 20 point game at the time with Team A losing. But he felt it was a player control foul. Comments.

I guess I am having trouble picturing this play. I need more information because.

1) Please describe how B1 was off balance.

2) How was B1 out of position?

3) Had B1 already established a legal guarding position against A1 prior to A1's pivot toward the basket?

4) If B1 had established a legal guarding position against A1, had B1 lost that legal guarding position before A1's pivto toward the basket?

The reason I am asking these questions is because it seems that B1 was directly between the basket and A1 and had established a legal guarding position against A1. When A1 pivoted toward the basket B1 was still between A1 and the basket and therefore was still maintaining her legal guarding position. If B1 was still maintaing her legal guarding position, then she still is protected against illegal contact by A1.

[Larks]

Welcome to the board.....

And...

I'm with you....I got nothin.

[cowbyfan1]

While the questions above are good ones and I would have to see it myself, I would say good no call..

[tomegun]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
The reason I am asking these questions is because it seems that B1 was directly between the basket and A1 and had established a legal guarding position against A1. When A1 pivoted toward the basket B1 was still between A1 and the basket and therefore was still maintaining her legal guarding position. If B1 was still maintaing her legal guarding position, then she still is protected against illegal contact by A1. [/B]

How did you get all of this from the original post? He said the defender was out of position and off balance. Downtown said he saw the same thing. I think you are reading into this when two people saw the same thing.

Good no call. Sometimes it takes guts to hold your whistle as well as blow your whistle.

[Tom M.]

In response to Mark's questions: (As best I can)

1) B1 momentum in getting to the spot to defend carried her with her weigh going backward. She was not steady on her feet.

2) B1 was out of position by being on the wrong side of A1. This happen because she arrived slightly late to defend and couldn't get to the proper position. Because A1 (with her back to the basket) was a right handed shot A1 would normally turn toward the basket going to her right hand to shoot or lay the ball in using the left hand to create space. B1 was on the opposite side (weak side) of A1, in my opinion out of the best defensive position. She was not directly between A1 and the basket, more to the side.

3) BUT, even though B1 had arrived late she had established LGP prior to A1's pivot and kept it during the exchange. She had two feet touching the playing court and had her torso facing A1.

4) The play ends by A1 instead of turning to her strong side
(right) goes the opposite way (into B1's weak side defensive position) and strikes B1 in the face with her elbow/arm. B1 because she was on that side had her face directly in the path of A1 offensive move. She was not directly between A1 and the basket but more to the side.

This maybe information overload is what I observed in making my no call. This situation may be tough to judge without seeing it. But I still think the no call is the right one.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Tom M.
In response to Mark's questions: (As best I can)

1) B1 momentum in getting to the spot to defend carried her with her weigh going backward. She was not steady on her feet.

2) B1 was out of position by being on the wrong side of A1. This happen because she arrived slightly late to defend and couldn't get to the proper position. Because A1 (with her back to the basket) was a right handed shot A1 would normally turn toward the basket going to her right hand to shoot or lay the ball in using the left hand to create space. B1 was on the opposite side (weak side) of A1, in my opinion out of the best defensive position. She was not directly between A1 and the basket, more to the side.

3) BUT, even though B1 had arrived late she had established LGP prior to A1's pivot and kept it during the exchange. She had two feet touching the playing court and had her torso facing A1.

4) The play ends by A1 instead of turning to her strong side
(right) goes the opposite way (into B1's weak side defensive position) and strikes B1 in the face with her elbow/arm. B1 because she was on that side had her face directly in the path of A1 offensive move. She was not directly between A1 and the basket but more to the side.

This maybe information overload is what I observed in making my no call. This situation may be tough to judge without seeing it. But I still think the no call is the right one.

First, I would like to thank you for the additional information. Second, in my original post I asked if B1 was between A1 and Team A's basket. It should be stated that B1 does not have to between A1 and Team A's basket to establish a legal guarding position; this is true even in post play.

1) You stated that B1 had established a legal guarding position against A1 and that B1 established her legal guarding position on A1's "weak" side as opposed to A1's "strong" side. B1's establishment of a legal guarding position against A1 on A1's "weak" side is of no consequence. Nothing in the rules requires that B1 establish a legal guarding position on A1's "strong" side.

2) You stated that B1 arrived late to get to a "proper" position. I usually do not like to assume anything, but by "proper" position I assume you mean between A1 and Team A's basket. The rules do not require B1 to be between A1 and Team A's basket to establish a legal guarding position and by your own words, B1 had established a legal guarding position against A1, nor do the rules require B1 to establish a legal guarding position in the best defensive position.

3) You stated that B1's momentum in moving to establish a legal guarding position left her unsteady on her feet and that her movement after establishing her legal guarding position was in a backward direction (once again I am assuming that this movement was away from A1). Whether B1's movement was the result of being off balance or not, she was moving legally to maintain her legal guarding position.

4) Just because A1 decided to pivot toward her "weak" side does not allow her to make illegal contact with a defender who has established a legal guarding position against her.

5) Therefore B1 had established a legal guarding position against A1 and was legally maintaining that position when A1 pivoted into B1. A1's hit B1 in the face with her forearm. This sounds like illegal contact to me by A1 and a player control foul on A1. It does not matter to which side A1 decided to pivot. It only matters that B1 had established a legal guarding position agains A1 and A1's movement caused illegal contact by A1 against B1.