Punch - Unsportsmanlike conduct? Technical?

[tomegun]

Originally posted by CLAY
its only a T is you are wearing beltless pants, if you are wearing belted pants you are not smart enough to make the call.

Excuse this comment. He is upset about another thread.

If he misses and is spinning in circles it is still a foul and when he stops spinning he needs to take his hind quarters to the bench! If we don't see the "fight" we can't call anything. It isn't the officials fault if there is a fight but I will say I have seen a particular official have more "incidents" in his games than most others. He didn't want to call anything. As far as blaming us across the board? I don't think that is accurate.

[CLAY]

Tomegun,

Good call, you hae read the other threads. I posted that remark as a joke. I thought someone would get a laugh out of it.

[CuriousFan]

Originally posted by CLAY
its only a T is you are wearing beltless pants, if you are wearing belted pants you are not smart enough to make the call.

A1 was not called for the technical or any foul. A1 shot one and one.

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Please

Originally posted by Larks
That's kind of a blanket statement isnt it?

Oh, sorry guys...I forgot to put quotations around my blanket statement and give credit to the person that made the quote.

"If there is a fight in the game, it is the officials fault"
Dave Libby
NCAA Final Four Official
Guest Speaker at numerous basketball camps around the country
30 years of officiating experience

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by CuriousFan
[/B]

A1 was not called for the technical or any foul. A1 shot one and one. [/B][/QUOTE]Then the officials obviously did not see the punch thrown by A1, or maybe they decided that it wasn't a punch. They penalized B1's foul only. That's probably the right thing to do. If you aren't 100% completely sure of a call,you don't want to start throwing players out,having them suspended,etc.

Sorry, but that's the way it is.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Nov 21st, 2003 at 12:30 PM]

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by RookieDude
"If there is a fight in the game, it is the officials fault"
Dave Libby

Mr. Libby has as much right to make ludicrous overgeneralizations as anybody else. To make that statement as if it were always true is simply incorrect.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
[/B]

Mr. Libby has as much right to make ludicrous overgeneralizations as anybody else. To make that statement as if it were always true is simply incorrect. [/B][/QUOTE]Wrong and stoopid too!

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Mr. Libby has as much right to make ludicrous overgeneralizations as anybody else. To make that statement as if it were always true is simply incorrect.

Fair enough...and to be fair to Dave Libby, this statement was made to a room full of officials at a basketball camp to make a point...we do get the point don't we?

RD

[tomegun]

Yeah, despite the credible source this blanket statement just isn't true.

[Hawks Coach]

To be fair to Mr. Libby, there is a point to making these kind of statements as a speaker. You want to shake your audience up a bit and get them to think of fights in a different way then simply "it's against the rules and players that do it are wrong." He's encouraging refs to take proactive steps to prevent fight situations from developing. Sure it's an over-generalization, but that is the point of the statement in the first place.

Fights can clearly happen for many reasons. And little or nothing that an official does or does not do justifies players fighting. That said, an official that manages games effectively will prevent many situations that could lead to fights. I have no doubt that this is what Mr. Libby meant when he made the statement.

[huskyz]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I would say that, if B1 obviously threw a punch at A1 it is considered fighting. This is flagrant and B1 would be ejected. A would get 2 free throws and the ball.

Obviously, you have to be sure that B was indeed throwing a punch.

[/B]

Flagrant what? Personal or technical? Same if the attempted punch didn't connect? [/B][/QUOTE]


I apologize for not being more clear. Fighting is a flagrant technical (10.9 Penalty). Yes, I say it is the same if the punch does not connect (4.18.1).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by huskyz
[/B]

I apologize for not being more clear. Fighting is a flagrant technical (10.9 Penalty). Yes, I say it is the same if the punch does not connect (4.18.1).
[/B][/QUOTE]We've had long discussions on this one before,believe me.

See NFHS casebook play 10.4.4SitA:
"Post players A1 and B1 begin punching each other and play is stopped".......Ruling: "A1 and B1 are charged with flagrant fouls and are disqualified, but no free throws will result from the double personal fouls".

There are also references in the book(which I ain't gonna look up) that reference fighting as a flagrant technical foul also.

End result is the same. Both flagrant.

[huskyz]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I apologize for not being more clear. Fighting is a flagrant technical (10.9 Penalty). Yes, I say it is the same if the punch does not connect (4.18.1).
[/B]

We've had long discussions on this one before,believe me.

See NFHS casebook play 10.4.4SitA:
"Post players A1 and B1 begin punching each other and play is stopped".......Ruling: "A1 and B1 are charged with flagrant fouls and are disqualified, but no free throws will result from the double personal fouls".

There are also references in the book(which I ain't gonna look up) that reference fighting as a flagrant technical foul also.

End result is the same. Both flagrant. [/B][/QUOTE]


You enjoyed setting me up for that one! But really, an item in the rule book that can be argued differently depending on what page you're on......never seen that before.

My original post was going to say something like, Who cares if it is personal or technical - flagrant either way.

I think I'm gonna like this forum.

[AK ref SE]

Originally posted by CuriousFan
Sorry, I'm new and not used to the A/B's and should have read it better.



Both referee's responded as if to break up a fight by running at the two players. On the video, the punch was clear and based on where the two referee's were standing (one under the basked with a clear view, one behind and to near mid-court with a clear view, A1 and B1 at the top of the key) and how they moved it is clear they saw the punch. There was no reason to move based on the foul before the punch.

A1 did not land a good punch because he had to strech to land it, but B1 confirmed that it landed and as evidenced on the video.

Curious Fan-
Never assume that even though the video may show that it appears that the officials had a clear view of what happened.
They may have had their vision focused elsewhere. Just look at instant replay in any sport, You can slow it down see it a hundred times, change the angle and have your judgement tainted.
Never assume you were not the officials on the floor, cant say way what they saw.

AK ref SE

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by huskyz
[/B]

You enjoyed setting me up for that one! But really, an item in the rule book that can be argued differently depending on what page you're on......never seen that before.

My original post was going to say something like, Who cares if it is personal or technical - flagrant either way.

I think I'm gonna like this forum. [/B][/QUOTE]We get quite a few arguments like that one,believe it or not. There are a lot of sharp dudes and dudettes visiting here- as well as some extremely knowledgeable coaches. Yup,you will have fun and you'll learn and keep current here.It's a helluva forum.