Inadvertant Whistle on shot

[Jeff the Ref]

He's the sitch from a HS Preseason game I saw. A1 releases ball on a try. While the ball is in flight, R1 blows whistle. Ball enters basket! R1 and U1 meet and decide it was an inavertant whistle. They count the hoop, and award ball to B for throw in on the end line. I think they got this wrong, as the ball becomes dead immediately, ball awarded by AP arrow. Your thoughts?

[Hawks Coach]

Ball in flight on a try is not dead until try is complete. They got it right.

[LukeZ]

I'd like to agree with Hawk, but case 7.5.4 specifically addresses this play and says to go with the AP arrow.

[Jeff the Ref]

Ruling 7.5.4 says" (c) the ball is put in play by the team entitled to the throw-in using the AP procedure, nothing about the counting of the hoop. Let's say Team A is entitled to the AP throw, and we count the hoop as Hawk said, do we give the ball back to Team A?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by LukeZ
I'd like to agree with Hawk, but case 7.5.4 specifically addresses this play and says to go with the AP arrow.

Coach is half right. The ball indeed is not made dead by the inadvertant whistle. However, b/c the whistle sounded while there was no team control by either team, play should resume with an AP throw-in.

I don't like it, but that's the interp. Although, now that I re-read the case, it doesn't say whether the shot is successful. Hmmmm.

Dan, can we use this case for questions #7 and #25 on our ECAC test?

[Edited by ChuckElias on Nov 7th, 2003 at 11:35 AM]

[Hawks Coach]

My electronic version of the case book does not have a 7.5.4 - can you give the exact interp language? I find in other areas some different guidance, but nothing precisely on this case. If A is in the process of shooting a FT and B violates accompanied accidental whistle, ball is dead. If ball is in flight, try is allowed to complete, then violation penalized if appropriate.

Then there is 2.11.10 that says go to AP arrow when there is no team control and an accidental whistle. But it does not specifically refer to a ball in flight on a try. A violation during a try makes the ball dead (BI in 6.7 A). Foul by defense, ball remains live. Foul by offense, ball is dead. Since this is no violation and no foul, it seems that the ball should remain live until try is complete. If basket is good, ball to B on baseline, otherwise AP.

Anything else would be uncivilized

[ChuckElias]

After a little more searching, I checked 6-3. Article 3 reads:

"In all jump-ball situations other than the start of the game and each extra period, an alternating-possession throw-in shall result when:

e. The ball becomes dead when neither team is in control and no goal or infraction or end of a quarter or extra period is involved."

So maybe we read this as saying that if there is a goal involved, you don't use the AP arrow, even if the whistle blows when there's no team control.

I like that reading a LOT better than my previous attempt.

So Dan, can we use this citation for questions #7 and #25?

[LukeZ]

7.5.4:
An official sounds his/her whistle accidentally: (c) while A1's try attempt is in flight and there is neither player nor team control; or (d) after A1's try had gone through the cylinder for a succesful field goal.
Ruling: In (c), the ball is put in play by the team entitled to the throw-in using the AP procedure. In (d), even though, by rule, there is no team control during this dead-ball period, the ball would be given to Team B for a throw-in anywhere along the end line. Team B would have clearly received the ball had the offical not accidentally sounded his/her whistle.

[LukeZ]

I agree, if the try is missed, go with the AP. But what if it's made? Maybe the case is just worded pourly. There is no rule that would support NOT counting the basket. And because a goal was scored, Team B should get the throw-in.

[ChuckElias]

So, based on (d), give it to B and let 'em run the endline.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by Jeff the Ref
He's the sitch from a HS Preseason game I saw. A1 releases ball on a try. While the ball is in flight, R1 blows whistle. Ball enters basket! R1 and U1 meet and decide it was an inavertant whistle. They count the hoop, and award ball to B for throw in on the end line. I think they got this wrong, as the ball becomes dead immediately, ball awarded by AP arrow. Your thoughts?

I don't know what the rule book says, but the right thing to do is to give the ball to B to run the endline. Heck, the ball went in!

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
So, based on (d), give it to B and let 'em run the endline.

Case (d) does not cover the original situation. Case (c) does. Case (c) is "while A1's try attempt is IN FLIGHT and there is neither player nor team control." The original sitch is "A1 releases ball on a try. While the ball is IN FLIGHT, R1 blows whistle. Ball enters basket!"

Case (d), on the other hand, is for the situation where the accidental whistle comes "AFTER A1's try had gone through the cylinder for a successful field goal."

The correct answer is that "the ball is put in play by the team entitled to the throw-in using the alternating-possession procedure." It ain't civilized, but it's correct.

[Hawks Coach]

Back in saddle
Are you counting the goal, or just awarding the ball? It seems to me to be two separate questions. 7.5.4 c) does not clearly address it, although I lean toward not counting the goal based on this reading of c and that is an unfortunate and decidely distasteful outcome. It seems to be inconsistent with all other rulings in similar situations, and not justified by the actual facts of the matter (i.e., once a ball is released, what is going to happen will happen, regardless of the accidental whistle).

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Back in saddle
Are you counting the goal, or just awarding the ball? It seems to me to be two separate questions. 7.5.4 c) does not clearly address it, although I lean toward not counting the goal based on this reading of c and that is an unfortunate and decidely distasteful outcome. It seems to be inconsistent with all other rulings in similar situations, and not justified by the actual facts of the matter (i.e., once a ball is released, what is going to happen will happen, regardless of the accidental whistle).

My conclusion from reading (c) is that the basket is not counted. If it were supposed to be counted, you'd award the ball to team B and not go with the arrow.

I agree with your feeling about this outcome entirely. It just feels wrong. However, trying to see what the other side of the argument might be, you could argue that the accidental whistle MAY have also prevented a goaltending or BI from occurring and that the matter is not necessarily decided once the ball is released. It's not a great argument, but it acknowledges that an accidental whistle could potentially impact any play, including this one. And once you acknowledge that, I think you have to go with the "lowest common denominator" approach, which is call it dead and go with the arrow.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle

Case (d) does not cover the original situation.

True, but the comment after case (d) applies equally to (c):
"Team B would have clearly received the ball had the offical not accidentally sounded his/her whistle." The spirit here is that if B obviously should have the ball, then they get the ball.

In (c), there is no indication that the ball went in the basket. If it doesn't, then obviously, we go to the arrow. But if it does, then just as obviously, Team B should have the ball.