Can't yell Foul

[garote]

Hey I need some help finding the section that says that a coach cannot tell their players to foul other wise it is an intentional foul (NF rule book)...I don't normally call this one but the coach was riding me all night so I obliged him with this call.

[ChuckElias]

I looked quickly in a couple of places where I thought it might be and I don't see a case that covers the situation. I'm sure it's not in the rules. My guesss is that this is not a hard-and-fast rule, but more of an edict passed down to local interpreters.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by garote
Hey I need some help finding the section that says that a coach cannot tell their players to foul other wise it is an intentional foul (NF rule book)...I don't normally call this one but the coach was riding me all night so I obliged him with this call.

You will not find a rule that specifically states that when a coach yells to one of his players, in a manner for the officials to hear, that he wants them to foul an opponent that this is an intentional foul. But the fact remains that if the player immediately fouls an opponent it should be called an intentional foul because the contact fits the definition of an intentioinal foul.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Don't believe you'll find anything about a coach can't tell his players to foul.

As you seem to understand the intentional foul is generally not called in this situation if the play can be construed as a typical defensive act. The grab from behind by a beaten defensive player or a hold that really is a grab and stop of the offensive dribbler's motion - Yes, intentional foul, and penalize appropriately with two and the ball (even if the shot goes).

[rainmaker]

I think the specific wording is in the Points of Emphasis for 2001-2002. Mine got stolen along with my whole kit bag about a year ago, so I can't investigate, but I'm pretty sure that's where the specific situation is discussed.

[rainmaker]

Forgot to mention that there are a couple of savvy coaches around here who choose a play name in line with their other play names, and use it to mean, "Okay girls, it's time to foul." By not saying the word "foul" they help us refs, since we aren't in the position of deciding whether to call the foul intentional. The most famous one around here is "Bananas! Bananas!"

[David B]

Just because a coach yells to foul that doesn't make it intentional.

Sure everyone in the gym knows they are fouling on purpose, but also as we know they are "fouling with a purpose."

Anyone who watched Dean Smith and his great teams at NC learned the value of the fouls in the last few moments.

How many games did NC win or nearly win after being down by a huge margin,but simply taking advantage of the other teams inability to shoot a free throw.

Thanks
DAvid

[JeffTheRef]

We used "Get the ball." That was it, you want a foul, "Freddy, GET THE BALL."

[JeffTheRef]

D2 boys final, the lesser team is down 5 with 30 seconds to go, the other team has the ball . . . and the coach (& staff) are doing nothing. The guy has been the coach for 30 years, rolling out the ball. He was a great local player . . .

So the crowd starts chanting "Foul!", and they do.

Does that meet the definition of 'Intentional Foul?'

Some things are best not brought to court.

[Hawks Coach]

I don't keep a library of old rulebooks - I carry one around for a year or two then junk it for the latest version. But I agree with juulie - this was specifically mentioned in a POE two years ago. Yell foul, player fouls, it's an intentional. Whether or not you want to follow this is up to you - it's not a POE this year!

As for the crowd, they are not participants and their calls for a foul accompanied by a subsequent foul should be judged on its own merits.

[ChuckElias]

No, I'm not turning into an archivist, a la MTD, but I do happen to have the 2000-2001 rulebook, and intentional fouls are in the POEs. I won't type out the whole thing, but part of the paragraph states the following.

Acts that must be deemed intentional include:
. . .when coach/player says "watch, we're giong to foul"

So notice that this doesn't necessarily include a coach telling his player to foul. It specifically addresses the situation where the coach tells the official that they're going to foul to stop the clock.

I don't know if that makes a difference to the current discussion, but it's kind of interesting.

[w_sohl]

POE or not, you aren't going to get to far with your assignors if you start calling this intentional. Judge the act, we all know they are going to foul. If it looks like they are just playing the ball call it as such, if they are fouling someone away from the ball call it intentional, otherwise you give the defense an unfair advantage by letting them choose who they are sending to the line. Judge the foul by its merits.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
No, I'm not turning into an archivist, a la MTD, but I do happen to have the 2000-2001 rulebook, and intentional fouls are in the POEs. I won't type out the whole thing, but part of the paragraph states the following.

So notice that this doesn't necessarily include a coach telling his player to foul. It specifically addresses the situation where the coach tells the official that they're going to foul to stop the clock.

I don't know if that makes a difference to the current discussion, but it's kind of interesting.

Thanks for doing my research for me Chuck, but I believe that if the Coach B yells to his players for them to foul and B1 immediately fouls A1, that foul is intentional.

True story: Two years ago, Team B is down by four points with less that a minute to play. Team B is pressing and I am Trail table side. Coach yells to B1 (who is guarding A1, who is dribbling the ball) to foul A1. B1 immediately hacks A1 across the arm. Intentional personal foul on B1. Almost had a technical on Coach B after that, but the foul fit the definition of an intentional foul.

[Rich]

Our state interpreter mentioned this specifically at the state meeting this season. He said that yelling FOUL has no bearing on the call. An intentional foul is intentional because of the nature of the foul, and I wholeheartedly agree.

Just because a player makes a more aggressive play on a ball with the intention of either (1) coming up with the ball or (2) fouling 100% of the times he doesn't get the ball doesn't make case (2) an intentional foul.

Rich

[Rich]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Thanks for doing my research for me Chuck, but I believe that if the Coach B yells to his players for them to foul and B1 immediately fouls A1, that foul is intentional.

True story: Two years ago, Team B is down by four points with less that a minute to play. Team B is pressing and I am Trail table side. Coach yells to B1 (who is guarding A1, who is dribbling the ball) to foul A1. B1 immediately hacks A1 across the arm. Intentional personal foul on B1. Almost had a technical on Coach B after that, but the foul fit the definition of an intentional foul.

Why is it intentional? It would seem to me that a hack across the arm was a play on the basketball and, failing that, a common foul. If this is an intentional foul earlier in the game without the coach yelling at the player, fine, but the only thing I hear from the coach is when he's asking for a time out. I take all contact at face value.

Rich