Whose call?

[canuckrefguy]

Mens Rec ball, 2 whistles.

A1 is outside the arc, but at about FT line extended, guarded by B1. They are on the left side of the court, just in front of Trail, who is watching intently. Lead is still "Cadillac", opposite side of the lane (hasn't crossed over).

A1 drives towards the baseline, then cuts in. B1 gets position on the block. Collision. Obvious charge. No call. Who should have taken that? Does Trail take it all the way to the hole, or does Lead pick that up?

[yankeesfan]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
Mens Rec ball, 2 whistles.

A1 is outside the arc, but at about FT line extended, guarded by B1. They are on the left side of the court, just in front of Trail, who is watching intently. Lead is still "Cadillac", opposite side of the lane (hasn't crossed over).

A1 drives towards the baseline, then cuts in. B1 gets position on the block. Collision. Obvious charge. No call. Who should have taken that? Does Trail take it all the way to the hole, or does Lead pick that up?

i feel that if you have an obvious charge like you said, then the trail should come in with a hard whistle and make the call. i also believe that the lead should of picked that up upon the player cutting in the lane. i dont see a problem with 2 whistles on that type of obvious play. i would like to hear what others have to say about this, this is an excellent mechanics question.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
Mens Rec ball, 2 whistles.

A1 is outside the arc, but at about FT line extended, guarded by B1. They are on the left side of the court, just in front of Trail, who is watching intently. Lead is still "Cadillac", opposite side of the lane (hasn't crossed over).

A1 drives towards the baseline, then cuts in. B1 gets position on the block. Collision. Obvious charge. No call. Who should have taken that? Does Trail take it all the way to the hole, or does Lead pick that up?

T's call because it came out of his primary. If the L had something he should have blown once it was clear the T wasn't.

[LSams]

I'll agree with Dan.

If T wants it they should have first crack at it. If I'm at lead I'll give the T a chance to make if not then I'll get it.

Not a bad spot for a double whistle (just remember to hold your preliminary signals until you make eye contact and communicate with your partner) -- in this double whistle situation I will pass to the T to take the call to the table.

Two other points that I've picked up on through the years that kind of apply here -- 1. Anytime we have a player on the floor, let's know how they got there. 2. If we have a "crash" let's have a whistle. Both of these have been preached to me by my assignors and clinicians.

[Adam]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
Mens Rec ball, 2 whistles.

A1 is outside the arc, but at about FT line extended, guarded by B1. They are on the left side of the court, just in front of Trail, who is watching intently. Lead is still "Cadillac", opposite side of the lane (hasn't crossed over).

"Crossed over?" In two-whistle? Lead doesn't cross over in two-whistle, does he?

Adam

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Snaqwells

"Crossed over?" In two-whistle? Lead doesn't cross over in two-whistle, does he?

Adam

Sure does!
Take a look at diagram 10 on page 25 of the new Officials' manual.
Of course, your local area may frown upon this, but it is an accepted NFHS mechanic.

[Damian]

Unless there was some play that the lead needed to stay on top of on his right side opposite the play, he should have at least closed down when the players came to the original place at the free throw line extended at the arc. He would be in a better position to move over to get on ball, or at least be in a good position to see the crash and take the call.

This is lead's primary area (where the crash occurred) and probably had the most responsibility to make the call. However, if there were players on the right side of the lane that needed attention, the trail could have stayed with the ball and made the call.

I agree with the others that have posted that this is one place where two whistles would have been better than none and good communication with partners would keep both of you out of trouble.

[Junker]

Originally posted by LSams
I'll agree with Dan.



Two other points that I've picked up on through the years that kind of apply here -- 1. Anytime we have a player on the floor, let's know how they got there. 2. If we have a "crash" let's have a whistle. Both of these have been preached to me by my assignors and clinicians.

This is something I haven't heard before and I am leaning toward disagreeing. Just because there is a "crash" or two players running into each other, or someone ends up on the floor, doesn't have to mean there is a foul. It sounds like they want a whistle no matter what when a player hits the floor. Are they urging you to call a foul instantly when there's hard contact or a player on the floor? I agree that we need to be aware of "crashes" and what happened, but I think everyone will agree that in two person mechanics you don't see nearly as much. I know I've had situations (espedcially in lower level games) where there's a "crash" and the crowd goes nuts for a foul call but if I didn't see it, or if a player is "flopping" I'll hold my whistle. I may be misuderstanding the advice so if I am, please set me straight.

[Indy_Ref]

Originally posted by Junker

This is something I haven't heard before and I am leaning toward disagreeing....[/B]

Then you'd be disagreeing with the likes of Jim Bain, John Adams, Tony Stigiliano, and several other college assignors, evaluators, and officials.

I myself find it hard to have a whistle every time a player goes to the floor...whether I know how he got there or not. (I better know! ) It is something I'm trying to improve upon. I used to defend my no-call if neither player would gain an advantage by the crash...meaning, the defensive player wasn't quite set or the offensive player was out-of-control, etc. These calls are not always crystal clear. However, the more college camps I go to, the more I hear, "If a player goes to the floor and nothing good happens right away (i.e. a basket, quick turnover), then an official HAS to have a whistle."

[cmathews]

All of the posts above have great points and are easlily defensible, and easy to agree with...the one point that hasn't been brought up... PRE GAME< PRE GAME, PRE GAME... In my pregame this situation is usually one of the first things discussed...As trail I tend to give it to the lead in a double whistle, and as the lead I want it...but the key is, since we do see different opinions, make sure that in pre game, you decide how it will be handled..cause un like a lot of situations that we discuss on this board, the ones that happen once a season, or even a lifetime, this one occurs almost nightly, or at least once every 2 or 3 games....

[Hawks Coach]

I understand the basic premise of the crash=whistle argument, but how does that mesh with the incidental contact provisions, specifically:

4-27 Incidental Contact:
ART. 2 . . . Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe.

ART. 4 . . . A player who is screened within his/her visual field is expected to avoid contact with the screener by stopping or going around the screener. In cases of screens outside the visual field, the opponent may make inadvertent contact with the screener, and such contact is to be ruled incidental contact, provided the screener is not displaced if he/she has the ball.

10-6-3d
A player who is screened within his/her visual field is expected to avoid contact by going around the screener. In cases of screens outside the visual field, the opponent may make inadvertent contact with the screener and if the opponent is running rapidly, the contact may be severe. Such a case is to be ruled as incidental contact provided the opponent stops or attempts to stop on contact and moves around the screen, and provided the screener is not displaced if he/she has the ball.

These provisions let you know that you can have strong crashing contact and not call a foul.

[Indy_Ref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
These provisions let you know that you can have strong crashing contact and not call a foul.

True, however my post was specifically referring to a drive to the basket.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I understand the basic premise of the crash=whistle argument, but how does that mesh with the incidental contact provisions, specifically:

4-27 Incidental Contact:
ART. 2 . . . Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe.

ART. 4 . . . A player who is screened within his/her visual field is expected to avoid contact with the screener by stopping or going around the screener. In cases of screens outside the visual field, the opponent may make inadvertent contact with the screener, and such contact is to be ruled incidental contact, provided the screener is not displaced if he/she has the ball.

10-6-3d
A player who is screened within his/her visual field is expected to avoid contact by going around the screener. In cases of screens outside the visual field, the opponent may make inadvertent contact with the screener and if the opponent is running rapidly, the contact may be severe. Such a case is to be ruled as incidental contact provided the opponent stops or attempts to stop on contact and moves around the screen, and provided the screener is not displaced if he/she has the ball.

These provisions let you know that you can have strong crashing contact and not call a foul.

I tend to agree with you, Hawks' Coach, but as someone explained to me this summer, these rules all apply pretty minutely when the ball isn't involved. If it's a train wreck and one of the "casualties" had the ball, there's GOT to be a whistle. Somebody fouled, period.

[tomegun]

One thing I would like to add. In a 2-person game the trail has to be aggressive. The trail cannot, I repeat cannot, hang out around the division line and watch the action. These plays are tough for the lead. That is one reason there is a C in 3-person. As a matter of fact, I've heard it many times that for a crew to have a good game the C must be active and have a good game. Something like 65% of the calls should come from C. Well the same could be said for the T in a 2-person game. The first step in seeing plays like this is to be in position. The arc is a good starting point. I like to go deeper. If I get beat back down court I slow up around the free-throw line and work for a good angle.

I like to talk basketball because it gets the brain to thinking. As I typed I came up with the bottom line. Our starting position is just that, a starting position. Within reason, we have to get in the best position to get and angle and referee plays. Angles, angles, angles!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker

I tend to agree with you, Hawks' Coach, but as someone explained to me this summer, these rules all apply pretty minutely when the ball isn't involved. If it's a train wreck and one of the "casualties" had the ball, there's GOT to be a whistle. Somebody fouled, period.

I'll add if you do pass on a crash on one end then you should be passing on a crash on the other end as well. And whatever you do DON'T have a whistle for something ticky-tack. Once things have "evened out" then you can regain control (can't wait to see if I get a reaction to that one ).

Lots of very good posts in this thread.