Legal or illegal throw-in?

[rfp]

Player A-1 scores. Player B-1, who is inbounds, throws the ball to player B-2 who is completely out-of-bounds. Player B-2 doesn't catch the thrown ball, but it bounces off his chest and lands inbounds where B-1 retrieves it and proceeds to dribble up the court. Legal throw-in or violation? It certainly looked ugly but I can't site a rule that was violated.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by rfp

Player A-1 scores. Player B-1, who is inbounds, throws the ball to player B-2 who is completely out-of-bounds. Player B-2 doesn't catch the thrown ball, but it bounces off his chest and lands inbounds where B-1 retrieves it and proceeds to dribble up the court. Legal throw-in or violation? It certainly looked ugly but I can't site a rule that was violated.

Legal

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Legal

MTD, Sr.

Nope.

The action does not meet the NFHS definition of a throw-in and is therefore illegal.

Why? The ball must be passed according to the following:
4-42-4 . . . The throw-in count ends when the ball is released by the thrower so the passed ball goes directly into the court.
&
7-6-2 . . .The throw-in begins when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to the throw-in. The thrower shall release the ball on a pass directly into the court, except as in 7-5-7, within five seconds after the throw-in begins. …

And a pass is defined as:
4-31
A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or rolls the ball to another player.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by rfp

Player A-1 scores. Player B-1, who is inbounds, throws the ball to player B-2 who is completely out-of-bounds. Player B-2 doesn't catch the thrown ball, but it bounces off his chest and lands inbounds where B-1 retrieves it and proceeds to dribble up the court. Legal throw-in or violation? It certainly looked ugly but I can't site a rule that was violated.

Since you are asking the question, what portion of it makes you think that it's not legal?

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[rfp]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Since you are asking the question, what portion of it makes you think that it's not legal?

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Basically what Nevadaref stated...did what take place meet the definition of a legal throw-in? Coach of opposing team certainly believed it was illegal.

[thumpferee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Nope.

The action does not meet the NFHS definition of a throw-in and is therefore illegal.

Why? The ball must be passed according to the following:
4-42-4 . . . The throw-in count ends when the ball is released by the thrower so the passed ball goes directly into the court.
&
7-6-2 . . .The throw-in begins when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to the throw-in. The thrower shall release the ball on a pass directly into the court, except as in 7-5-7, within five seconds after the throw-in begins. …

And a pass is defined as:
4-31
A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or rolls the ball to another player.

Would you call this a violation or just reset and initiate a proper throw in?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by rfp

Player A-1 scores. Player B-1, who is inbounds, throws the ball to player B-2 who is completely out-of-bounds. Player B-2 doesn't catch the thrown ball, but it bounces off his chest and lands inbounds where B-1 retrieves it and proceeds to dribble up the court.

Originally Posted by thumpferee

Would you call this a violation or just reset and initiate a proper throw in?

While one can't argue with Nevadarefs' rule citations, I was thinking the same thing.

But lets say that B2 never really had possession (holding or dribbling) out of bounds.

What if B2 (who was picking himself off the floor out of bounds) wasn't expecting a pass because he had his back to B1 (who was simply "flicking" the ball out of bounds, to no one in particular), and the ball accidentally bounced off of B2's back?

Or if B2 wasn't fully ready (looking at his feet to make sure that he was out of bounds) to accept a pass from B1 (who was simply "flicking" the ball out of bounds, to no one in particular) and the ball was accidentally fumbled of muffed by B2 onto the playing court?

All within five seconds.

And, just for fun, add in a "steal" and score by A1 off the accidental ball off the chest, ball off the back, or the fumbled ball.

Or instead of B1 retrieving the ball and proceeding to dribble up the court, imagine that B2 steps onto the playing court to pick up the loose ball off of his chest bump, back bump, or fumble, or muff, and returns out of bounds to "reset" himself? All within five seconds? Again, B2 never really had possession (holding or dribbling) before picking up the inbound loose ball.

Do we allow an inbounder (or free thrower) to "reset" when we, as an officials, screw up the hand off or the bounce pass?

Does actual possession (holding or dribbling) out of bounds count for anything here?

Interesting thread. Thanks rfp.

[Raymond]

7-5-7 says the ball does not have to be passed directly onto the court after a made or awarded basket, and there is no other aspect of this play that creates a violation, so I don't see why it wouldn't be legal.

The ball was batted by his chest.

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[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Nope.

The action does not meet the NFHS definition of a throw-in and is therefore illegal.

Why? The ball must be passed according to the following:
4-42-4 . . . The throw-in count ends when the ball is released by the thrower so the passed ball goes directly into the court.
&
7-6-2 . . .The throw-in begins when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to the throw-in. The thrower shall release the ball on a pass directly into the court, except as in 7-5-7, within five seconds after the throw-in begins. …

And a pass is defined as:
4-31
A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or rolls the ball to another player.

NevadaRef:

The NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's Rules prohibit: i) a Player from Intentionally Kicking the Ball and ii) striking the Ball with the fist.

Did B1 do either (i) or (ii)!

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Raymond

The ball was batted by his chest.

Not possible under NFHS rules. Batting the ball is done with the hand(s) per
4-15-1” . . . A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats [intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)] or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times. It is not a part of a dribble when the ball touches a player’s own backboard.”

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

NevadaRef:

The NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's Rules prohibit: i) a Player from Intentionally Kicking the Ball and ii) striking the Ball with the fist.

Did B1 do either (i) or (ii)!

MTD, Sr.

No, but this action does not take place during the course of normal play inbounds. This is a throw-in and that must be done with the hand(s) as noted in the rules cited above.

[rfp]

For what it's worth, I'm told TJ Halliday, head of IAABO training, ruled this legal, with no explanation.

[Zoochy]

IAABO's motto, "One Rule, One Interpretation" or whatever we say

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Zoochy

IAABO's motto, "One Rule, One Interpretation" or whatever we say

"One Rule, One Interpretation, Semper Ubi Sub Ubi".

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rfp

For what it's worth, I'm told TJ Halliday, head of IAABO training, ruled this legal, with no explanation.

Not the first time that a person in such a position has issued an incorrect ruling. Mary Struckhoff did so several times when working for the NFHS.

We can read the rules in the book and clearly understand that this action is not legal.

[SNIPERBBB]

Only way you can make this a violation is some gymnastics with this part:

ART. 6 . . . The thrown ball shall not touch the thrower in the court before it touches or is touched by another player.