2pt or 3pt?

[Valley Man]

Apparently this play was discussed on 5 Play Friday

A1 sends a pass to A2. A1 releases the pass to A2 behind the arc and B2 inside the arc deflects the pass into Team A goal.

Score 2 or 3?

Relevant rules use the word THROWN to mean different things. In 4-41-2 "thrown" means a try. In 5-2-1 try and tap are already used and the rule uses "thrown" as a 3rd method.


4-41-2 A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score 2 or three points by throwing the ball into a teams own basket. A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball, and in the official judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal.

5-2-1 A successful try tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the teams own 19'9" arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the ark and official or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into basket, the ball is thrown.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Valley Man

Score 2 or 3?

Yes.

Depends on the type of pass. If it had any chance of going in without the touch (was a high arc, in the general direction of the basket, etc), score 3. If it did not (a line drive / a bounce pass, from the wing toward the top of the key, ...) then score two points.

[Valley Man]

I agree Bob.

I need to find the 5 play Friday .. someone must of caught it late or misinterpreted it. They relayed it was a 3 regardless.

[BillyMac]

This situation has been debated and debated since the NFHS first introduced the three point arc, and then, shortly after, removed any rule reference to a "try".

Officials, for a short time, used to have to subjectivity decide if this a "pass" (two points) or a "try" (three points).

Quoth the raven, "Nevermore".

I say three points, even if a pass from A1 (behind the arc) bounces off of A2's head (also behind the arc) and then enters Team A's basket.

Does it meet all of the following criteria?

5-2-1 A successful try tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the teams own 19'9" arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the ark and official or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into basket, the ball is thrown.

Wait, is a ball bouncing off of a player's head a "thrown ball"?

Originally Posted by Valley Man

In 5-2-1 try and tap are already used and the rule uses "thrown" as a 3rd method.

Of course, in regard to the horn sounding, there a big difference between any old "thrown ball", and a "try".

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I say three points, even if a pass from A1 (behind the arc) bounces off of A2's head (also behind the arc) and then enters Team A's basket. Does it meet all of the following criteria?

5-2-1 A successful try tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the teams own 19'9" arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the ark and official or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into basket, the ball is thrown.

Wait, is a ball bouncing off of a player's head a "thrown ball"?

If we would count it (bounce off the head) for two, then we should also count it for three (behind the arc).

It's certainly not a "try", but it is a "thrown" ball.

Originally Posted by Valley Man

4-41-2 A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score 2 or three points by throwing the ball into a teams own basket. A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball, and in the official judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal.

5-2-1 A successful try tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the teams own 19'9" arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the ark and official or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into basket, the ball is thrown.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

This situation has been debated and debated since the NFHS first introduced the three point arc, and then, shortly after, removed any rule reference to a "try". Officials, for a short time, used to have to subjectivity decide if this a "pass" (two points) or a "try" (three points). Quoth the raven, "Nevermore".

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Of course, in regard to the horn sounding, there a big difference between any old "thrown ball", and a "try".

For a short period of time, the NFHS allowed officials to use their training, experience, and common sense to subjectively determine if a "thrown" ball from behind the arc was a "try", or a "pass".

The NFHS still allows us to differentiate between a "thrown" "pass" or a "try" when the horn sounds with the ball airborne.

And also to interpret goaltending (has to be a try), as well as being fouled in the act of shooting.

The NFHS should return this subjective decision to officials for the three point bounce off of the head.

We can handle it, that's why we get paid the "big bucks".

However, without a NFHS rule change, or an annual interruption, or a casebook play:

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Valley Man

Apparently this play was discussed on 5 Play Friday

What is "5 Play Friday" and how does one subscribe?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

What is "5 Play Friday" and how does one subscribe?

Facebook contributor Greg Austin. I think his page is called A Better Official.

He is very good with the HS rules. But he has some long videos that I can't sit through.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

What is "5 Play Friday" and how does one subscribe?

Originally Posted by Raymond

Facebook contributor Greg Austin. I think his page is called A Better Official. He is very good with the HS rules.

https://www.youtube.com/@BetterOfficials/streams

His "Five Play Fridays" are great.

Live at 10:00 a.m. Eastern Time, almost every Friday morning in season, at least five videos to discuss (chat) live.

Later goes onto his You Tube website as an edited shorter version.

Subscribing sends one an email reminder of his live You Tube broadcast, but the reminder email comes at 10:00 a.m. Eastern Time the day of the You Tube broadcast (Friday). I would prefer a day before reminder.

One may have to subscribe to join the live discussion (chat).

Used to offer rule and casebook presentations ("Basketball Rule Expert") on Mondays and/or Wednesdays, also at 10:00 a.m. Eastern Time, live with discussion (chat), and later an edited shorter version. Not so much this season.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Depends on the type of pass. If it had any chance of going in without the touch (was a high arc, in the general direction of the basket, etc), score 3. If it did not (a line drive / a bounce pass, from the wing toward the top of the key, ...) then score two points.

Got a citation, or is this a well educated, experienced, personal, "always listen to bob", "real game (not necessarily rule based)", rational, common sense, opinion?

So a really hard and fast line drive type pass (hardly any arc), maybe a "baseball pass", from the corner, from behind the three point arc, parallel to the endline, that's intended to go a wide open teammate in the opposite corner, but happens to bang really really hard off the rim, goes very high into the air, and then drops quietly into the basket, is how worth many points?

Forget about differentiating between a try, or a pass, or from anything else.

The NFHS doesn't allow us to do that any more for these type of situations (no act of shooting foul, no horn, no goaltending).

Originally Posted by Valley Man

5-2-1 A successful try tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the teams own 19'9" arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the ark and official or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into basket, the ball is thrown.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Valley Man

4-41-2 A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score 2 or three points by throwing the ball into a teams own basket. A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball, and in the official judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal.

Is this rule for scoring two points, or three points, or for determining if a player was fouled in the act of shooting, or in the act of passing (or something else)?

We already know that a throw doesn't have to be a try to score two points, so why does it have to "look like a try" to score three points?

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by Valley Man

Apparently this play was discussed on 5 Play Friday

A1 sends a pass to A2. A1 releases the pass to A2 behind the arc and B2 inside the arc deflects the pass into Team A goal.

Score 2 or 3?

Relevant rules use the word THROWN to mean different things. In 4-41-2 "thrown" means a try. In 5-2-1 try and tap are already used and the rule uses "thrown" as a 3rd method.


4-41-2 A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score 2 or three points by throwing the ball into a teams own basket. A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball, and in the official judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal.

5-2-1 A successful try tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the teams own 19'9" arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the ark and official or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into basket, the ball is thrown.

What direction was the ball going? If it is not going towards the basket, it is not a try. If it is, it is a try. If it is a try, it is worth 3 points. There was a case play about basket interference on a throw-in, where the offended team was awarded 2 points. The rationale was that a throw-in is not a try.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

There was a case play about basket interference on a throw-in, where the offended team was awarded 2 points. The rationale was that a throw-in is not a try.

It was also "thrown" from out of bounds, not from inbounds from behind the three point arc, which would be three points.

No way am I'm awarding three points for a ball interfered with after a throw from out of bounds, from anywhere in the gym.

Originally Posted by Valley Man

5-2-1 A successful try tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the teams own 19'9" arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the ark and official or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into basket, the ball is thrown.

This isn't Larry Bird and Michael Jordan playing horse in a McDonald's commercial.