Was it really that bad?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Lead should have helped her out? How? Are you suggesting Lead go to Trail and say “hey I know this is the biggest game you and I have ever worked but you need to take that foul back”? No way lol.

The ball was not in the primary of the Lead? So if it clearly went off her foot, she should have had some idea for sure. But if she did not see it, then nothing you can do. But the players were just out of the lane. And Women's extends the Lead's coverage to the sideline too. Should have been wider too.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I talked to several women’s officials and they mentioned handchecks are called very tightly at the D1 level, and also very inconsistently.

If that’s true, that’s a shame. Multiple soft calls that you won’t see in NCAA-M, NBA, or the W.

Women's basketball loves to tell everyone how pure they are in their application of certain rules. So I am pretty sure I have seen similar calls made at that level before that you can question would be called at other levels.

I say this pretty clearly, adjust. There is no reason to put your hand on ball handlers unless you want to make the official decide of that is a foul.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

"I did not call the foul, but gave them the out of bounds" kind of situations.

That's an ancient times philosophy. We all did that (actually secretly trained to do so) twenty-five, thirty, forty years ago, where both coaches (and players) walked away "winking" and somewhat satisfied.

I stopped doing that when everybody's grandmother sitting in the bleachers had access to a high definition video camera with their cell phones.

Now I decide to call the foul, or not call the foul, based on what I see, intent and purpose, advantage-disadvantage, my previous calls in the game, and consistency between me and my partner.

I no longer call a make-up, make-believe, phantom out of bounds call.

If I pass on the foul, I'm always calling out of bounds on the team that touched it last, as James Naismith intended.

Sure one coach is pissed, but that's why we get paid the big bucks, to make such tough decisions.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There is no reason to put your hand on ball handlers unless you want to make the official decide of that is a foul.

Words of wisdom.

[Multiple Sports]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I talked to several women’s officials and they mentioned handchecks are called very tightly at the D1 level, and also very inconsistently.

If that’s true, that’s a shame. Multiple soft calls that you won’t see in NCAA-M, NBA, or the W.

Prior to Covid I observed for a D1 Co ordinator on the women's side. I sat with her and she noted six "hand checks" that went uncalled. I thought may be one was a missed call. A couple other friends work for Jon Levinson. They tell me repeatedly that he fjnds about 8 a game they don't call. Yes, hand on for two dribbles the woman's game wants a whistle. Zero consideration is given to advantage / disadvantage

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Multiple Sports

Zero consideration is given to advantage / disadvantage

Sounds similar to the high school philosophy. Anything more than a single "hot stove" touch is illegal.

NFHS 10-7-12: The following acts constitute a foul when committed against a ball handler/dribbler. A player becomes a ball handler when he/she receives the ball. This would include a player in a post position.
a. Placing two hands on the player.
b. Placing an extended arm bar on the player.
c. Placing and keeping a hand on the player.
d. Contacting the player more than once with the same hand or alternating hands.

NFHS 10.7.12 SITUATION A: A1 is dribbling in the frontcourt and B1 (a) places two hands on the dribbler; (b) places an extended arm bar on the dribbler; (c) places and keeps a hand on the dribbler; (d) contacts the dribbler more than once with the same hand or alternating hands. RULING: Illegal in all cases. A personal foul shall be ruled any time this type of contact occurs on a player holding or dribbling the ball. (10-6-12)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I talked to several women’s officials and they mentioned handchecks are called very tightly at the D1 level, and also very inconsistently.

If that’s true, that’s a shame. Multiple soft calls that you won’t see in NCAA-M, NBA, or the W.

The rule on the Women's side is pretty clear--keep your hands off non-post ball handlers. There are no more inconsistent at enforcing their standards than NCAA-Men's officials, IMO.

[MechanicGuy]

Originally Posted by Multiple Sports

Prior to Covid I observed for a D1 Co ordinator on the women's side. I sat with her and she noted six "hand checks" that went uncalled. I thought may be one was a missed call. A couple other friends work for Jon Levinson. They tell me repeatedly that he fjnds about 8 a game they don't call. Yes, hand on for two dribbles the woman's game wants a whistle. Zero consideration is given to advantage / disadvantage

This may be the case, but given the expressions on the LSU players face and the uncertain looks from the Iowa players after some of the whistles - it definitely hadn't been called that way for some time.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Raymond

The rule on the Women's side is pretty clear--keep your hands off non-post ball handlers. There are no more inconsistent at enforcing their standards than NCAA-Men's officials, IMO.

Totally agree. Many of Men's officials justify everything to not call it (including me sometimes).

Peace

[CJP]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I really enjoyed watching Caitlin Clark in the national semi, but I was unable to watch any of the Women's Final. This morning, however, I've heard several commentators say that the officiating was particularly poor. I expect to hear this from the loudmouths on TV, but I've heard from at least 3 people who are not normally ref-bashers.

For those that watched, did you find the officiating to be shaky? I honestly can't imagine the whole crew being bad for the whole game, but I've heard 2 different people say that the crew should not work the tournament again. But I honestly can't believe that it couldn't have been that bad, right?

Honest thoughts?

It couldn't have been that bad, they combined for 187 points. Iowa, who led the country in scoring at 87 ppg scored 85. This output despite 37 fouls is not all that bad considering the median foul count per team in NCAA women's basketball is 17 fouls per game.

LSU was the better team. They won.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by CJP

It couldn't have been that bad, they combined for 187 points. Iowa, who led the country in scoring at 87 ppg scored 85. This output despite 37 fouls is not all that bad considering the median foul count per team in NCAA women's basketball is 17 fouls per game.

LSU was the better team. They won.

LSU was the better team. Unfortunately, the officiating of this game did make a difference in the game. We don't know how LSU would have fared if they hand't picked up foul trouble in the first half. I do feel the calls on Clark did influence her game. Watching the semi-final, she seemed dangerous on dribble penetration and then either scoring or dishing the ball to open teammates. This aspect of her game seemed largely taken away by the two foul calls early.

The call I had the biggest problem with was the T on Clark. Yes, by the strict definition of the rule, this was the correct call. I don't think this was the intent of the rule, nor the spirit of the rule. In my opinion the spirit of the rule and intent is to prevent the game from being delayed (thus the DOG warning issued first). You can't tell me the game was delayed because of Clark's actions that got her the T.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

LSU was the better team. Unfortunately, the officiating of this game did make a difference in the game. We don't know how LSU would have fared if they hand't picked up foul trouble in the first half. I do feel the calls on Clark did influence her game. Watching the semi-final, she seemed dangerous on dribble penetration and then either scoring or dishing the ball to open teammates. This aspect of her game seemed largely taken away by the two foul calls early.

The call I had the biggest problem with was the T on Clark. Yes, by the strict definition of the rule, this was the correct call. I don't think this was the intent of the rule, nor the spirit of the rule. In my opinion the spirit of the rule and intent is to prevent the game from being delayed (thus the DOG warning issued first). You can't tell me the game was delayed because of Clark's actions that got her the T.

It's not about the delay, it's about the act of making somebody fetch the ball when you could handed it to an official, or just simply left the ball alone. Instead she CHOSE to grab the ball and purposely toss it towards the stands and away from the official. It's rolled up into the DOG rule to allow for a warning instead of immediately going to a Tech.

[Raymond]

Funny thing is, when the incident happened and and I found out what she did, my original thought was "just give her a delay warning." That's what a lot of NBA guys say to do in that situation so that players know it's not alright to toss the ball away from us like that without having to penalize them. But since they already had a delay warning, it cost her a technical.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

"just give her a delay warning." ... But since they already had a delay warning, it cost her a technical.

NCAA: "Rule reference – Rule 10, Section 12, Article 3K. The definition of the delay can be found in Rule 4, Section 9, Article 1F, by failing to and it reads, attempting to gain an advantage by interfering with the ball after a goal, or by failing to immediately pass the ball to the nearest official after the whistle is blown."

NCAA: (Referee Lisa Jones) cited Rule 4, Section 9, Article 1F of the rulebook, which reads that a player can be assessed a foul for “attempting to gain an advantage by interfering with the ball after a goal or by failing to immediately pass the ball to the nearest official after a whistle is blown.” In the same section, the rulebook states that “one team warning shall be given for each of the delays in Rule 4-9.1.d through g.” “Thereafter, a technical foul shall be assessed for the delay that has previously received a team warning,” it reads.

NCAA-W Rule 4 Section 9 Delay
Art. 1. A delay is any action that impedes the progress or continuity of the game. Such actions include, but are not limited to:
a. Failure to supply scorers with data per Rule 3-4.1;
b. Consuming a full minute by not being ready when it is time to start either half or any ovretime;
c. Delaying the game by preventing the ball from being promptly made live or by preventing continuous play, such as but not limited to, followers or bench personnel entering the playing court before player activity has been terminated. When the delay does not interfere with play, it shall be ignored, and play shall be continued or be resumed at the point of interruption;
d. Repeatedly delaying the game by preventing the ball from being promptly put into play, such as delaying the administration of a throw-in or free throw by engaging in a team huddle anywhere on the playing court;
e. Failure to have the court ready for play after the final horn to end any timeout;
f. Attempting to gain an advantage by interfering with the ball after a goal or by failing to immediately pass the ball to the nearest official after a whistle is blown; or
g. The opponents of the thrower-in having any part of their person beyond the vertical inside plane of any boundary line before the ball has crossed that boundary line.
Art. 2. One team warning shall be given for each of the delays in Rule 4-9.1.d through .g. Each warning shall be reported to the official scorer. Thereafter, a technical foul shall be assessed for the delay that has previously received a team warning.

It appears that the NCAA treats "failing to immediately pass the ball to the nearest official after a whistle is blown" like many other delays, including giving a warning for such a delay, whereas the NFHS does not allow (or require) a warning for delay for "failing when in possession, to immediately pass the ball to the nearer official when a whistle sounds".

The NFHS technical foul, while "technically" for a delay, is somewhat "free standing" and does not allow (or require) a warning for such a delay.

NFHS 10-4- 5: A player must not: Delay the game by acts such as:
a. Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play.
b. Failing when in possession, to immediately pass the ball to the nearer official when a whistle sounds.
c. The free thrower fails to be in the free-throw semicircle when the official is ready to administer the free throw unless the resumption-of-play procedure is in effect following a time-out or intermission.
d. Repeated violations of the throw-in, as in 9-2-10.

RULE 4 - SECTION 47
NFHS 4-47: Warning For Delay: A warning to a team for delay is an administrative procedure by an official which is recorded in the scorebook by the scorer and reported to the head coach:
ART. 1 . . . For throw-in plane violations, as in 9-2-10, 10-2-1c.
ART. 2 . . . For huddle by either team and contact with the free thrower, as in 10-2-1d.
ART. 3 . . . For interfering with the ball following a goal as in 10-2-1e.
ART. 4 . . . For failure to have the court ready for play following any timeout as in 10-2-1f.

I wonder if this now infamous NCAA play will confuse some NFHS officials to incorrectly believe that "failing when in possession, to immediately pass the ball to the nearer official when a whistle sounds" allows (or requires) a warning for delay in their high school games (in essence, an incorrect fifth warning for delay situation).

This wouldn't be the first time some high school officials confused NFHS and NCAA rules (see backcourt deflection, backboard goaltending, etc.).

[The_Rookie]

Would not be surprised if discussion takes place on the penalty. NFHS DOG after warning it is a Foul on the team and not charged to player. maybe NCAAW look at making this the HS penalty.