Shot Clock Try

[crosscountry55]

Shot clock winding down. A1 is fouled by B1 in the act of shooting before the shot clock expires, but releases the ball after it expires.

Discuss.


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[bob jenkins]

Two FTs for A1.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Shot clock winding down. A1 is fouled by B1 in the act of shooting before the shot clock expires, but releases the ball after it expires.

Discuss.


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Is there a monitor involved?

Was the try successful?

I believe in NCAA Men's without a monitor, there is one rule for the game clock and a different rule for the shot clock.

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[crosscountry55]

No monitor involved. Situation described was an NFHS game with a shot clock. Shot was indeed successful.

This was kind of a slow-developing continuous motion play right under the basket. Frankly I think the game/shot clock should have stopped at the whistle before the release (I’m not sure if they were synchronized, but believe they were).

Whistle was certainly before the shot clock expiration. Does that matter?


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[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

No monitor involved. Situation described was an NFHS game with a shot clock. Shot was indeed successful.

This was kind of a slow-developing continuous motion play right under the basket. Frankly I think the game/shot clock should have stopped at the whistle before the release (I’m not sure if they were synchronized, but believe they were).

Whistle was certainly before the shot clock expiration. Does that matter?


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Yes, in my opinion that matters. Both clocks should halt on the whistle.
I would count the goal and award one FT.

[bob jenkins]

Isn't there some NFHS case play where a player is fouled before the game horn, but the timer can't get the clock stopped in time and then the ball is released? Use the same ruling for the shot clock scenario (NCAA with replay could be different)

[Raymond]

I am posting the entirety of A.R. 349. The note at the end tells me we do not count a goal if it is released after the shot clock expires, even if a foul is ruled to have occurred prior to the expiration of the shot clock.

A.R. 349. Near the end the first or second period or any overtime period, A1 is fouled in the act of shooting but before releasing the ball for a try. After the foul, the shot-clock horn sounds followed immediately by the release of the ball for a shot attempt and the sounding of the game-clock horn. A1’s try is:

1. Successful; or
2. Unsuccessful.

RULING 1: When a foul and a try for goal sequentially occur at the expiration of time on the shot clock, the official shall use the monitor to determine whether the foul and try occurred before the sounding of the shot-clock horn. When it is determined that the foul occurred before the expiration of the shot clock but the try was not released before the sounding of the shot-clock horn, the foul shall be penalized. With the use of the monitor, the official shall be permitted to put the exact time on the game clock when the foul occurred. When the officials determine that time should be put back on the game clock, the shot-clock horn should never have sounded and the goal shall count.

2: The official shall use the monitor to determine whether the foul occurred before the expiration of time on the shot clock. When it is determined that the foul occurred before the expiration of the shot clock, the foul shall be penalized. When it can be determined, the official shall be permitted to put back on the game clock the time which elapsed since the foul occurred.

NOTE: When this play situation occurs at any other time during the game, the shot-clock violation would preclude the counting of the basket. The shooter would be awarded two free throws.

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[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I am posting the entirety of A.R. 349. The note at the end tells me we do not count a goal if it is released after the shot clock expires, even if a foul is ruled to have occurred prior to the expiration of the shot clock.

A.R. 349. Near the end the first or second period or any overtime period, A1 is fouled in the act of shooting but before releasing the ball for a try. After the foul, the shot-clock horn sounds followed immediately by the release of the ball for a shot attempt and the sounding of the game-clock horn. A1’s try is:

1. Successful; or
2. Unsuccessful.

RULING 1: When a foul and a try for goal sequentially occur at the expiration of time on the shot clock, the official shall use the monitor to determine whether the foul and try occurred before the sounding of the shot-clock horn. When it is determined that the foul occurred before the expiration of the shot clock but the try was not released before the sounding of the shot-clock horn, the foul shall be penalized. With the use of the monitor, the official shall be permitted to put the exact time on the game clock when the foul occurred. When the officials determine that time should be put back on the game clock, the shot-clock horn should never have sounded and the goal shall count.

2: The official shall use the monitor to determine whether the foul occurred before the expiration of time on the shot clock. When it is determined that the foul occurred before the expiration of the shot clock, the foul shall be penalized. When it can be determined, the official shall be permitted to put back on the game clock the time which elapsed since the foul occurred.

NOTE: When this play situation occurs at any other time during the game, the shot-clock violation would preclude the counting of the basket. The shooter would be awarded two free throws.

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So basically, in NCAAM, if near the end of a period (which is kind of subjective, but I digress) and there’s a monitor, we nuke this out. Otherwise, no basket, award 2FT. Is that how to read this?

Interesting that NCAAM would go out of its way not to allow for any definite time knowledge on the part of the crew with whistle vis-a-vis clock.

Anyone know of any related NFHS case or interp? Or does this represent a clarity gap in the infancy of its shot clock era?


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[Robert Goodman]

The foul may have influenced when the shot was released.

[crosscountry55]

Update: My interpreter confirmed that as the whistle should have stopped the clocks and precluded expiration of the shot clock in the first place, it was correct to score the goal and award one free throw, which is what we ultimately did.


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[Raymond]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Update: My interpreter confirmed that as the whistle should have stopped the clocks and precluded expiration of the shot clock in the first place, it was correct to score the goal and award one free throw, which is what we ultimately did.


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What rule set are you using for your shot clock games?

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Raymond

What rule set are you using for your shot clock games?

The IAABO Shot Clock addendum. It’s in that newly formatted rule book that IAABO hastily put together last summer after they didn’t get their permission to re-print Fed materials renewed by NFHS.


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[Raymond]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

The IAABO Shot Clock addendum. It’s in that newly formatted rule book that IAABO hastily put together last summer after they didn’t get their permission to re-print Fed materials renewed by NFHS.


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To me that ruling makes sense. Don't know why NCAA-Men's is going with that note from A.R. 349.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Is there a monitor involved?

Was the try successful?

I believe in NCAA Men's without a monitor, there is one rule for the game clock and a different rule for the shot clock.

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I am posting the entirety of A.R. 349. The note at the end tells me we do not count a goal if it is released after the shot clock expires, even if a foul is ruled to have occurred prior to the expiration of the shot clock.

A.R. 349.
NOTE: When this play situation occurs at any other time during the game, the shot-clock violation would preclude the counting of the basket. The shooter would be awarded two free throws.

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Update: My interpreter confirmed that as the whistle should have stopped the clocks and precluded expiration of the shot clock in the first place, it was correct to score the goal and award one free throw, which is what we ultimately did.


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Originally Posted by crosscountry55

The IAABO Shot Clock addendum. It’s in that newly formatted rule book that IAABO hastily put together last summer after they didn’t get their permission to re-print Fed materials renewed by NFHS.


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Originally Posted by Raymond

To me that ruling makes sense. Don't know why NCAA-Men's is going with that note from A.R. 349.

They must be listening to me:
TO: NCAA Division I, II and III Coordinators of Men’s Basketball Officials.
Bulletin No. 4 — February 9, 2023, Videoconference Follow-Up.
Clarifications.

2. End of Shot Clock Period — To promote consistency between A.R. 167 and A.R. 349, the note in A.R. 349 shall be removed. The application of the note in A.R. 349 is inconsistent. Now, A.R. 349 shall be officiated consistently throughout the entire game in line with A.R. 167 and A.R. 349.

Play situation: Near the end of the shot clock period at any point in the game, A1 is fouled in the act of shooting, but before releasing the ball for a try. After the foul, the shot clock horn sounds, followed immediately by the release of the ball for a shot attempt. A1’s try is successful.

RULING: When a foul and a try for goal sequentially occur at the expiration of time on the shot clock, the official shall use the monitor to determine whether the foul and try occurred before the sounding of the shot clock horn. When it is determined that the foul occurred before the expiration of the shot clock, the foul shall be penalized, and the goal shall count. With the use of the monitor, the officials shall be permitted to put the exact time on the game clock when the foul occurred.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Play situation: Near the end of the shot clock period at any point in the game, A1 is fouled in the act of shooting, but before releasing the ball for a try. After the foul, the shot clock horn sounds, followed immediately by the release of the ball for a shot attempt. A1’s try is successful.

RULING: When a foul and a try for goal sequentially occur at the expiration of time on the shot clock, the official shall use the monitor to determine whether the foul and try occurred before the sounding of the shot clock horn. When it is determined that the foul occurred before the expiration of the shot clock, the foul shall be penalized, and the goal shall count. With the use of the monitor, the officials shall be permitted to put the exact time on the game clock when the foul occurred.

But what about in games when there is not a monitor?