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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 24, 2022, 01:36pm
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Big Bucks ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... 4-27 did not magically go away in the rulebook in the last 10 years either. There is still a standard that all contact is not a foul and when that contact does not directly influence the normal movement of players, it is not illegal or should not be ruled a foul.
Agree that incidental contact is still in the rulebook.

Good officials have to adjudicate based on both 4-27 and 10-7-12.

That's why basketball officials get paid the big bucks.

As usual, when in Rome ...
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Old Fri Jun 24, 2022, 01:52pm
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First Shot Across The Bow ...

Up until recently, most of our guys only called "touch" handcheck fouls (when there was no obvious advantage gained) when the handchecks were multiple, persistent, and very obvious, often first giving a warning, "Hands off".

Now (since 2014-15), with the exemption of a single, momentary "hot stove" touch with one hand, our interpreter, and our assigner want these (two hands, extended arm bar, placing and keeping a hand, contacting more than once with the same hand or alternating hands) called (when there was no obvious advantage gained), and we seldom issue warnings, usually the first shot across the bow is a foul called.

That being said, some our local guys, especially some grizzled veterans, still have differing philosophies.

As usual, when in Rome ...
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Jun 24, 2022 at 05:48pm.
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Old Fri Jun 24, 2022, 02:19pm
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History ...

2008-09 NFHS Points Of Emphasis
Hand-checking. Defenders are not permitted to have hands on the dribbler or offensive players away from the ball. Hand-checking is not incidental contact; it gives a tremendous advantage to the person using illegal hands/tactics. Regardless of where it happens on the floor, when a player:
1) Continuously places a hand on the opposing player – it is a foul.
2) Places both hands on a player – it is a foul.
3) Continuously jabs a hand or forearm on an opponent – it is a foul.

2010-11 NFHS Points Of Emphasis
Hand checking is a foul and is not incidental contact.
Defensive players shall not have hand(s) on the offensive player.
When a player has a hand on, two hands on or jabs a hand or forearm on an opponent, it is a foul.


2014-15 NFHS Basketball Rules Changes
New 10-6-12: The following acts constitute a foul when committed against a ball handler/dribbler:
a. Placing two hands on the player.
b. Placing an extended arm bar on the player.
c. Placing and keeping a hand on the player.
d. Contacting the player more than once with the same hand or alternating hands.
Rationale: Rather than continuing to make hand-checking a point of emphasis year after year, simply add a brand new rule that requires a personal foul be called ANY TIME this type of contact occurs on a player holding or dribbling the ball outside of the lane area. The NFHS game needs this type of illegal contact on the perimeter ball handlers and dribblers eliminated.
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Jun 24, 2022 at 06:49pm.
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 27, 2022, 04:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
2008-09 NFHS Points Of Emphasis
Hand-checking. Defenders are not permitted to have hands on the dribbler or offensive players away from the ball. Hand-checking is not incidental contact; it gives a tremendous advantage to the person using illegal hands/tactics. Regardless of where it happens on the floor, when a player:
1) Continuously places a hand on the opposing player – it is a foul.
2) Places both hands on a player – it is a foul.
3) Continuously jabs a hand or forearm on an opponent – it is a foul.

2010-11 NFHS Points Of Emphasis
Hand checking is a foul and is not incidental contact.
Defensive players shall not have hand(s) on the offensive player.
When a player has a hand on, two hands on or jabs a hand or forearm on an opponent, it is a foul.


2014-15 NFHS Basketball Rules Changes
New 10-6-12: The following acts constitute a foul when committed against a ball handler/dribbler:
a. Placing two hands on the player.
b. Placing an extended arm bar on the player.
c. Placing and keeping a hand on the player.
d. Contacting the player more than once with the same hand or alternating hands.
Rationale: Rather than continuing to make hand-checking a point of emphasis year after year, simply add a brand new rule that requires a personal foul be called ANY TIME this type of contact occurs on a player holding or dribbling the ball outside of the lane area. The NFHS game needs this type of illegal contact on the perimeter ball handlers and dribblers eliminated.

As the bald old geezer (H.S., Class of 1969) and still "old school".

From the 2010-11 NFHS Points of Emphasis: "Hand checking is a foul and is not incidental contact." That is how it was called when I playing JrHS (1963-64 and 1964-65; and is in my 1963-64 NBC Rules Book. One did not Hand Check in practice unless one wanted to run laps; Hand Checking was considered "lazy defense". Ironically, NAGWS Basketball Rules, the Rules Set for AIAW Basketball before the NCAA took over women's college basketball in 1983-84, specifically allowed Hand Checking, by Rule, because NAGWS Basketball Rules were a mashup of NBC and FIBA Rules, and FIBA allowed Hand Checking.

Time for my pre-dinner nap. I hope that everyone is having a great Summer.

MTD, Sr.
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Old Tue Jun 28, 2022, 10:25am
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Curious. No modern rule set allows hand checking.

Back to the topic of hand checking, some boards in my area are stricter than others, but I have noticed that it is consistently called. Two hands? We call it. Repeated hot stove touches? I call it. Re-route? If I see it, I call it.
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Old Tue Jun 28, 2022, 10:33am
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I agree with the basic philosophy that handchecking is not incidental contact. But the problem is that many cannot identify what it is much of the time. Again we have people that think simply touching another player is just that. But the rule uses the word "placing" which to me is a much more active behavior than if someone comes to you and your hand touches them. This is why we get paid the big bucks. We have to decide if the behavior is enough to warrant a foul. And if I put my arm out and you blow right by me, do we need a foul there? So there is a little art to this when it often is sold as a science.

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Old Tue Jun 28, 2022, 01:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I agree with the basic philosophy that handchecking is not incidental contact. But the problem is that many cannot identify what it is much of the time. Again we have people that think simply touching another player is just that. But the rule uses the word "placing" which to me is a much more active behavior than if someone comes to you and your hand touches them. This is why we get paid the big bucks. We have to decide if the behavior is enough to warrant a foul. And if I put my arm out and you blow right by me, do we need a foul there? So there is a little art to this when it often is sold as a science.

Peace
You can disagree with whether it is necessary or not, but the above is precisely the thinking they were trying to get rid of with the change. They were very clear that they do not want you trying to decide if it is an advantage or not. If a player touches another player with his/her hand in one of the forms described, it is a handchecking foul. It is an advantage by definition in the case of handchecking.

Yet, there continues to be large resistance to this change.
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Old Tue Jun 28, 2022, 01:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Curious. No modern rule set allows hand checking.

Back to the topic of hand checking, some boards in my area are stricter than others, but I have noticed that it is consistently called. Two hands? We call it. Repeated hot stove touches? I call it. Re-route? If I see it, I call it.
From what I hear, it is not consistently adjudicated in the Catholic League.
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