More Than Five ...

[Zoochy]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree. I'm not from Missouri, but I'm not taking the word of the scorer, or the coach, I have to see it to believe it.

Am I right Zoochy?



(Doubting Thomas, John 20: 24-29)

Don't drag me into this

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Zoochy

Don't drag me into this

I thought that was you, third from the right, in the image I posted.

Isn't every male in Missouri named Thomas?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I wish that the NFHS was more definitive about what "participating" means ...

This is about the third, or fourth, time, over decades, that I’ve done a deep dive into this situation.

Avoiding rule language that I find confusing, or ambiguous, here’s what I’ve pieced together.

1) The on-court officials must see the infraction occur, or have definite personal knowledge that it did occur, in order to penalize the infraction, not accepting the word of table personnel, coaches, etc.

2) The infraction is for more than five team members currently participating in the game. We all have enough common sense to know what participating means; we know it when we see it.

3) Such a infraction can occur, and/or be called, during a live ball, dead ball, clock running, or clock stopped situation, even if we have definite personal knowledge of an extra player walking off the court into a timeout, or walking off the court into an intermission.

4) Officials must do everything that they can possibly do to prevent situations like these from happening. We should count players after every substitution (same number out, same number in), timeout, and intermission, and if and when we find extras, we send them off with no penalty before starting play.

5) Once the ball is at the disposal of a player (throwin, or free throw) we could penalize the infraction. However, if we spot the extra player immediately after disposal (before the throwin pass is released, or before the free throw is released) we may be able to sound our whistle, take back the ball, and send off the extra player with no penalty.

Comments will be appreciated.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Comments will be appreciated.

Anybody find any "holes' in my guidelines?

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

5) Once the ball is at the disposal of a player (throwin, or free throw) we could penalize the infraction. However, if we spot the extra player immediately after disposal (before the throwin pass is released, or before the free throw is released) we may be able to sound our whistle, take back the ball, and send off the extra player with no penalty.

Once the ball becomes live (at the disposal of) then the sixth player is participating in the game and should be penalized. However, if I am in this game I am going to blow my whistle and claim that I recognized there were six before you gave the ball to the thrower if I recognize it soon enough.

And, while I have already gone on record as a proponent of counting the players, it is ultimately the coach's (or player's) fault for too many players on the court just as it is the coach's fault if he (or his players) call an extra time-out.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... if we have definite personal knowledge of an extra player ... walking off the court into an intermission.

By this I mean that officials realize that something feels odd immediately (split second) after the period ending horn, and then definitely count six players from one team walking off the court during the dead ball time period immediately after the period ending horn, giving them definite personal knowledge that an infraction of more than five team members "participating" in the game had (past tense) just occurred.

Keep in mind that there are no "players" during an intermission, only bench personnel.

Too late to penalize?

I say, "No". It's not too late to penalize. What say you?

[Rich1]

I think its too late (as a practical matter if not a technical matter) if you have already gone to the locker room at half time, determine there were six and want to penalize it when you come back out. It would be hard to defend the fact that you "have definite personal knowledge of an extra player" if you don't handle it pretty quickly after it occurs.

But I think if you were to huddle up at the horn to discuss it with crew before you go in and determine there were six you could inform the table and coaches of the situation and penalize the offending team.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich1

But I think if you were to huddle up at the horn to discuss it with crew before you go in and determine there were six you could inform the table and coaches of the situation and penalize the offending team.

Agree.

Followup question. When do you shoot the technical foul free throws?

As part of the previous period (before the intermission), or after the intermission as part of the new period?

I say the former. While the technical foul was called during the intermission, it was for an infraction that occurred during the previous period.

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

When do you shoot the technical foul free throws?

I had the same thought. Although you should probably shoot them before going to the locker room if you can since it happened to end the 2nd quarter, but if you don't get the chance then it would fall under the umbrella of a correctable error and you could shoot them when you come back out.

However, this begs another question - How do you start the 3rd quarter, stay with the possession arrow or award to the team that shot the free throws because of the tech?