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Old Sun Mar 27, 2022, 12:11pm
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More Than Five ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Agree that the "statute of limitations" ... can be confusing ...
Rich1's recent thread on "wrong numbers" brought to mind another technical foul penalty rule language that I often struggle with.

I’m having problems fully understanding the administration of the 10-1-6 (more than five team members participating simultaneously) penalty. If a team has more than five team members participating simultaneously, then a team technical foul is charged. This infraction is penalized if it is discovered by the officials while being violated, in other words, while more than five team members are currently participating as players in the game.

Here’s my problem. I wish that the NFHS was more definitive about what "participating" means, as well as what "while being violated" means. If there are six team members participating, does it matter whether, or not, the ball is dead, live, clock running, clock not running, or if there is, or isn't, a timeout (not an intermission)? What defines whether, or not, a player is participating? Does it have to be during a live ball, clock running, situation? Can it be during a live ball, clock stopped situation, i.e., ball at disposal of free throw shooter? Can it be during a dead ball, clock running situation, i.e. dead ball immediately after a made field goal? How about during a dead ball, clock stopped situation, i.e during a timeout?

This below helps but it's not from an "official" NFHS publication:

From the IAABO Sportorials November/December 2017 issue, article entitled Rules Interpretations and Clarifications From In-Person Meeting With Theresia Wynns, NFHS Basketball Rules Editor:

More than five players on the court not observed by officials: If Team A has more than five players on the court during a live ball and the officials do not realize it, should the officials charge Team A with a technical foul if the scorer notifies officials of the infraction during the next dead ball period? Answer: No. An on-court official must observe the excess number of players on the court during a live ball and a team having more than five players on the court during a live ball shall be penalized only if the infraction is discovered while being violated.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Apr 04, 2022 at 03:12pm.
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Old Sun Mar 27, 2022, 12:12pm
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College ...

NCAA Bulletin

In a recent game, six players participated in the game for one team. Several officials and administrators asked for clarification and we are releasing the following play situation:

SITUATION: Team A has six players on the playing court when the ball is made live with five seconds remaining in the game. A1’s successful field goal attempt is in the air when the time expires ending the game. Immediately after the expiration of time and before the officials have left the playing court, one of the officials observes that Team A had six players on the court when the basket was scored. What is the correct ruling?

RULING: The field goal shall count because A6 became a player when the ball became alive (Rule 3-4.1.c). However, the game has not ended since the officials have not left the court, which ends their jurisdiction and approves the score. The officials should award Team B two free throws and the game will continue with an overtime period if both free throws are successful (Rule 2-4.4, 5-7.7. and 10-2.6).

Further Comment: Rule 10-2.6 requires that the sixth player participate when the ball is alive. There is no time limit within which the officials have to recognize and penalize this technical foul. However, the officials must see the violation occur or have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize the infraction. A monitor may not be used to obtain such knowledge (Rule 10-2.6, 2-13.2 and 5-7.7).
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Old Sun Mar 27, 2022, 12:13pm
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High School Situations ...

A) Head coach of Team B requests, and is granted, a timeout, at which point he immediately complains to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. The sole purpose of his timeout is to call attention to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. Officials, who have been unaware that six team members have been participating up until that point, count six Team A members on the court before they head into their timeout huddle. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call? (Please note that in 10.1.6 SITUATION (b) the officials were not aware of the additional player until after time expires, which, to me, means the same as an intermission, when all team members are bench personnel. The situation that I have described here in not during an intermission, but is during a timeout.)

B) Team B head coach yells to nearest official that there are six Team A players participating. Official sounds whistle to stop the action to count the players and discovers that there are six Team A team members on the court during this dead ball, clock stopped, situation. What's the call?

C) Team A has six team members participating, which goes unobserved by the officials. Official calls a travel violation on Team A. There are no substitutions after the whistle. Before administering the throw in, officials observe that Team A has six team members participating. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

D) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. Before bouncing the ball to the free thrower for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

E) The last Team A free throw attempt is successful. The clock hasn't started. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

F) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. After bouncing the ball to the free thrower, and with the ball at the free thrower's disposal for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is live, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

G) Team A scores a field goal. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is running. What’s the call?

H) Multiple substitutions. All substitutes report and are legally beckoned. Extra team member is confused and stays on court, unnoticed by everybody. Ball put into play. Quick foul occurs. No substitutions. One and one free throws awarded. First free throw made. No substitutions. Extra team member discovered by officials (who don't know when the extra team member entered) during dead ball, clock stopped, after first free throw made while the ball is in the hands of the lead official.

I) After multiple substitutions during which all substitutes reported and were properly beckoned, after the ball becomes live, Team A scores a field goal. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is running. One of the head coaches is yelling "They have six players on the court, that's a technical foul". Are six team members moving into positions to set up a full court press "participating", especially while the clock is running?

J) Made basket by Team A, immediate time-out by Team A is granted by the officials, officials notice six team members departing the floor for Team A. How do you handle it?
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Old Sun Mar 27, 2022, 12:43pm
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Oh good lord.

Somebody please inject a sanctimonious rejoinder about preventing this in the first place with good dead ball officiating and let’s move on.


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Old Sun Mar 27, 2022, 12:49pm
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I Know It When I See It (Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart) ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
Somebody please inject a sanctimonious rejoinder about preventing this in the first place with good dead ball officiating and let’s move on.
Agree.

My questions were in regard to a written test situation, not a real game situation.

Actually more of a rant against poor and confusing NFHS rule language.

I think that I know six players participating when I see it.

Forgot to list this under NCAA Bulletin:

At the very least, this should emphasis why officials must take their time, and do everything that they can possibly do, using good mechanics, to prevent situations like these from happening.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Mar 27, 2022 at 12:55pm.
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Old Sun Mar 27, 2022, 01:11pm
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How do we define observed and discovered?

If an official is watching the game is he not observing all of the players? Of course, just because you are observing 11 players does not mean you realize there is a violation.

If you "observe the excess number of players on the court during a live ball" then the question is more about whether or not you can address it if you do not realize the violation before the ball become dead.

In many of BillyMac's situations the referees have the opportunity to recognize without a doubt that there were too many players on the court as soon as play was stopped and that the extra player did participate during a live ball. The rule does not say it has to be penalized while the ball is live, only that the excess number of players on the court must be observed during a live ball.

The part the says "penalized if discovered while being violated" does not mean we can only give the T if we see them playing during a live ball. Rather, it is telling us we as officials must have direct knowledge of it being violated during a live ball - we cannot simply take the word of the scorer, an opposing coach, or the crowd.

Additionally, if there is a sixth player on the court who is able to get off the court before any of the referees observe him playing in the game (discover while being violated) then there could be no penalty. In most of BillyMac's situations we are able to discover that there were six players during a live ball by counting the players as soon as the ball becomes dead so this meets the requirement to discover while being violated.

Finally, there is also a difference between having six players on the court after a time-out ready to start the throw in and having six layers after the throw-in begins. If we recognize there are six before the throw in begins we can delay the throw in and send one of them off (which is why you should always count players) but once the throw in begins and the ball is live (even if the clock is not running) then this would be a violation.
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Old Sun Mar 27, 2022, 01:19pm
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Preventative Officiating ...

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Originally Posted by Rich1 View Post
... there is also a difference between having six players on the court after a time-out ready to start the throw in and having six layers after the throw-in begins. If we recognize there are six before the throw in begins we can delay the throw in and send one of them off (which is why you should always count players) but once the throw in begins and the ball is live (even if the clock is not running) then this would be a violation.
Thanks for reading my rant Rich1.

We should count after every substitution, timeout, and intermission, and if and when we find "extras", we send them off. Happens all the time. Good preventative officiating. No penalty.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Mar 28, 2022 at 11:33am.
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Old Sun Mar 27, 2022, 01:22pm
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The Show Me State ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich1 View Post
... we as officials must have direct knowledge of it being violated during a live ball - we cannot simply take the word of the scorer, an opposing coach, or the crowd ...
Agree. I'm not from Missouri, but I'm not taking the word of the scorer, or the coach, I have to see it to believe it.

Am I right Zoochy?



(Doubting Thomas, John 20: 24-29)
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Mar 27, 2022 at 05:21pm.
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Old Mon Mar 28, 2022, 10:59am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Agree. I'm not from Missouri, but I'm not taking the word of the scorer, or the coach, I have to see it to believe it.

Am I right Zoochy?



(Doubting Thomas, John 20: 24-29)
Don't drag me into this
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Old Mon Mar 28, 2022, 11:31am
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Doubting Thomas ...

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Originally Posted by Zoochy View Post
Don't drag me into this
I thought that was you, third from the right, in the image I posted.

Isn't every male in Missouri named Thomas?
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Mar 29, 2022 at 12:15pm.
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Old Mon Mar 28, 2022, 12:51pm
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Common Sense ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I wish that the NFHS was more definitive about what "participating" means ...
This is about the third, or fourth, time, over decades, that I’ve done a deep dive into this situation.

Avoiding rule language that I find confusing, or ambiguous, here’s what I’ve pieced together.

1) The on-court officials must see the infraction occur, or have definite personal knowledge that it did occur, in order to penalize the infraction, not accepting the word of table personnel, coaches, etc.

2) The infraction is for more than five team members currently participating in the game. We all have enough common sense to know what participating means; we know it when we see it.

3) Such a infraction can occur, and/or be called, during a live ball, dead ball, clock running, or clock stopped situation, even if we have definite personal knowledge of an extra player walking off the court into a timeout, or walking off the court into an intermission.

4) Officials must do everything that they can possibly do to prevent situations like these from happening. We should count players after every substitution (same number out, same number in), timeout, and intermission, and if and when we find extras, we send them off with no penalty before starting play.

5) Once the ball is at the disposal of a player (throwin, or free throw) we could penalize the infraction. However, if we spot the extra player immediately after disposal (before the throwin pass is released, or before the free throw is released) we may be able to sound our whistle, take back the ball, and send off the extra player with no penalty.

Comments will be appreciated.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Apr 04, 2022 at 02:44pm.
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Old Mon Apr 04, 2022, 02:45pm
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Holes ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Comments will be appreciated.
Anybody find any "holes' in my guidelines?
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Old Mon Apr 04, 2022, 10:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
5) Once the ball is at the disposal of a player (throwin, or free throw) we could penalize the infraction. However, if we spot the extra player immediately after disposal (before the throwin pass is released, or before the free throw is released) we may be able to sound our whistle, take back the ball, and send off the extra player with no penalty.
Once the ball becomes live (at the disposal of) then the sixth player is participating in the game and should be penalized. However, if I am in this game I am going to blow my whistle and claim that I recognized there were six before you gave the ball to the thrower if I recognize it soon enough.

And, while I have already gone on record as a proponent of counting the players, it is ultimately the coach's (or player's) fault for too many players on the court just as it is the coach's fault if he (or his players) call an extra time-out.
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Old Tue Apr 05, 2022, 12:30pm
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Intermission ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
... if we have definite personal knowledge of an extra player ... walking off the court into an intermission.
By this I mean that officials realize that something feels odd immediately (split second) after the period ending horn, and then definitely count six players from one team walking off the court during the dead ball time period immediately after the period ending horn, giving them definite personal knowledge that an infraction of more than five team members "participating" in the game had (past tense) just occurred.

Keep in mind that there are no "players" during an intermission, only bench personnel.

Too late to penalize?

I say, "No". It's not too late to penalize. What say you?
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Apr 05, 2022 at 01:15pm.
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Old Tue Apr 05, 2022, 07:51pm
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Too late for a TECHnicality

I think its too late (as a practical matter if not a technical matter) if you have already gone to the locker room at half time, determine there were six and want to penalize it when you come back out. It would be hard to defend the fact that you "have definite personal knowledge of an extra player" if you don't handle it pretty quickly after it occurs.

But I think if you were to huddle up at the horn to discuss it with crew before you go in and determine there were six you could inform the table and coaches of the situation and penalize the offending team.
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