SPU / Purdue 2:40

[Multiple Sports]

How does everyone feel about the administration of this play. Did SPU have possession when he was going out of bounds and three it back in play. If so and official blew the whistle was there player control, if not is it an inadvertent whistle and the crew must go to the arrow. I thought Steratore was right and Purdue was going to get the ball. Thoughts ???

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Multiple Sports

How does everyone feel about the administration of this play. Did SPU have possession when he was going out of bounds and three it back in play. If so and official blew the whistle was there player control, if not is it an inadvertent whistle and the crew must go to the arrow. I thought Steratore was right and Purdue was going to get the ball. Thoughts ???

If this works the same way as NFHS, I have to disagree.
Once the officials determine that the SPU player saving the ball caught and threw it, establishing both player and team control, that team control continues until an opponent secures the ball. The inbounds Purdue player merely touches the ball, but is never able to control it before the official halts play due to the shot clock expiring.
My ruling is that this is an inadvertent whistle with SPU in team control, and therefore the ball is awarded to SPU for a throw-in under the POI rule.

I’ll also note:
If the officials were to deem that there was no player control by the SPU player attempting to save the ball from going out of bounds, then this is simply a shot clock violation and SPU gets the ball.

There is no possibility that Purdue could be awarded the ball in this scenario as it surrendered team control when shooting an air ball.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If this works the same way as NFHS, I have to disagree.
Once the officials determine that the SPU player saving the ball caught and threw it, establishing both player and team control, that team control continues until an opponent secures the ball. The inbounds Purdue player merely touches the ball, but is never able to control it before the official halts play due to the shot clock expiring.
My ruling is that this is an inadvertent whistle with SPU in team control, and therefore the ball is awarded to SPU for a throw-in under the POI rule.

I’ll also note:
If the officials were to deem that there was no player control by the SPU player attempting to save the ball from going out of bounds, then this is simply a shot clock violation and SPU gets the ball.

There is no possibility that Purdue could be awarded the ball in this scenario as it surrendered team control when shooting an air ball.

Great point. I hadn’t considered the team control aspect. In the moment, I don’t think Gene did, either, and when he said that, I stopped thinking about it.

Credit to the crew, they talked it out, took their time, and came to the correct conclusion, without concern over the “you’re affecting the game with this delay” pressure that I’m sure they were feeling.

Super important moment. Worth all the time they needed to get it right.


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[Raymond]

Go to about the 1:30 mark of this video. I can't embed from my Android.

https://youtu.be/ud-YfvftovA

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[JRutledge]

If we are talking about the save play, then the answer is to me that is not possession. I am not giving a timeout at that time or calling a BCV if they were in their front court if he threw the ball to the backcourt. I like the call.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If we are talking about the save play, then the answer is to me that is not possession. I am not giving a timeout at that time ...

Tough call.

Is he holding the ball? I think not.

One handed, possession? Sure, possible, but probably didn't happen in this play.

Tough call.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If we are talking about the save play, then the answer is to me that is not possession. I am not giving a timeout at that time or calling a BCV if they were in their front court if he threw the ball to the backcourt. I like the call.

Peace

I’m pretty sure they called possession, TC, and POI at IW.

If it was a shot clock violation as you suggest, they would have reset the game clock to 2:41 which is where it was when the shot clock expired. They did not and left it at 2:40.


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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

I’m pretty sure they called possession, TC ...

I believe that they did.

Like I said, tough call.

A little more control (cupping ball in hand and fingers), easy call, one hand holding, player control, and team control.

A little less control (just a few fingers tipping the ball, or flatter hand slapping the ball), easy call, no holding, no player control, and no team control.

Was he slapping, tipping, or tapping the ball back onto the court? One can slap, tip, or tap with intent and direction.

Was he ever holding the ball (player control is defined as holding or dribbling, nothing about controlling, one can control a tip, tap, or slap without holding the ball)?

As it is, no man's land, rock and a hard place, damned if you do, damned if you don't, six of one, half dozen of the other.

Judgment. It's why basketball officials get paid the big bucks.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Was he slapping, tipping, or tapping the ball back onto the court? One can slap, tip, or tap with intent and direction ...

Reminds me of ancient times, before a tip, or a tap, was considered to be a try for goal. Officials had to decide how much control (holding) was involved to decide between an in the act of shooting (try) foul, or a common foul.

Player could be fouled on a tip or tap that missed and get no free throws (before the bonus, his team gets the ball), or a one and one (no double bonus back then).

If I recall correctly, if a player was fouled before the ball was in flight after tipping or tapping, the ball became dead immediately and a basket could not be scored.

Maybe the best rule change ever.

Am I right Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Was he slapping, tipping, or tapping the ball back onto the court? One can slap, tip, or tap with intent and direction ...

Devil's Advocate: "Was he starting a dribble by slapping, tipping, or tapping the ball to the floor? If so, he has player control during a dribble".

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Like I said, tough call. Judgment. It's why basketball officials get paid the big bucks.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

I’m pretty sure they called possession, TC, and POI at IW.

If it was a shot clock violation as you suggest, they would have reset the game clock to 2:41 which is where it was when the shot clock expired. They did not and left it at 2:40.

I am not so sure they called possession. They never changed change the clock as you said. The ball throw-in by St. Peters on the end line. The arrow was going towards Purdue and it never changed (well considering that St. Peters got the ball after the whistle). If they had ruled possession there and an inadvertent whistle, then they would have likely had to go to the arrow. So it seems by all accounts this was just a shot clock violation.

It never was explained in the broadcast.

Peace

[FlasherZ]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

So it seems by all accounts this was just a shot clock violation.

It never was explained in the broadcast.

I believe it was a SC violation as well. The explanation to the broadcast crew explained that the game clock had a timing error and the game clock should have stopped when the shot clock hit zero (so why didn't they correct it?). The in-venue PA system announced that it was a SC violation, although I'm also a bit confused about them announcing the SC should be set at 29 seconds for SPU.

[Raymond]

By the time we see the center official he's coming in with two hands up emphatically as if his initial whistle was not heard. I believe he blew his whistle off-camera where we can't see it as Purdue was first batting the ball after the save.

Of course, we can all speculate all day long until somebody actually talks to somebody on that crew.

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[BillyMac]

I don't know a lot about college basketball officiating, but it appears that from the initial split-second catch, or non-catch, and throw/tip/tap/slap back, until the conclusion and announcement of the monitor review, everything in between (dribble, shot clock, team control, etc.) was just a giant dumpster fire.

I'm not fully blaming the officials, there were a lot of tough judgment calls that occurred in a very short period of time. Nothing was easy about this situation.

Watched a friend work a state semifinal a few weeks ago. At one point he was the trail in the back corner of the frontcourt, in front of and trapped against the table, with one partner all the way down on the end line, and the other partner all the way over on the other side of the court, with their own active matchups, so no real help (except for the two head coaches standing within a few feet of him). He had several decisions to go through on a play in that corner as one offensive player was trapped in the corner by two defensive players, and then the players went to the floor after the ball got loose the floor. What initially was almost a five second call (he was counting) became either an offensive team control foul, a defensive foul, out of bounds (on either team), backcourt, or a held ball, all while he had to listen for a coach (or coaches) requesting, and he possibly granting, a timeout. All this in a few seconds.

He came out with the strongest held ball call that I've ever seen.

It's not easy being a high school, or college, basketball official.

[Kansas Ref]

The closest analogy is to football wherein a wide receiver's "catch" is really not a catch unless he "controls the ball".