At the High School level

[JRutledge]

Are they different because of the level or because of the judgment of the particular officials?

Peace

[Kansas Ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Are they different because of the level or because of the judgment of the particular officials?

Peace

*For case #1, the difference was due to the acknowledged use of different rule sets (i.e., NF vs. CCA?).

As for case#2, the difference was ostensibly due the judgement of the particular officials (as you've surmised).

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

*For case #1, the difference was due to the acknowledged use of different rule sets (i.e., NF vs. CCA?).

The rules are the same (at least for practical purposes) between the codes.

I didn't see the play, so I won't opine on whether the "Customary motion" had started.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The rules are the same (at least for practical purposes) between the codes.
...

I would say NCAA-Men's more restrictively defines what constitutes the shooting motion via the Case Book (A.R. 121). All the other codes basically consider the end the dribble (gathering) as the beginning of the shooting motion.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I would say NCAA-Men's more restrictively defines what constitutes the shooting motion via the Case Book (A.R. 121). All the other codes basically consider the end the dribble (gathering) as the beginning of the shooting motion.

I am going to disagree a little bit. Nothing in the play suggests that the rule application is totally different in that A.R. I see a situation where it appears the player was not shooting and then was fouled, then decided to shoot. That is not so different than the NF position as I see it. Because the motion must be associated with the shot. If they did something else after being fouled, I think that is different no matter the code. Again the NCAA used to use a term, "Upward motion" but that was removed and was primarily used for a line of demarcation for block-charge plays. They got rid of that interpretation when there was too much judgment involved.

I do not see the rule being drastically different in its practice and say that because of the things the NF puts out there or even how the NCAA wants this to be called.

I see the very next play after your reference, this is stated.

A.R. 122. A1 drives to the basket, picks up his dribble in his hand(s) and has begun an upward or downward (as in an attempted dunk) motion of his hand(s) when B1 fouls A1. Is the foul by B1 considered to be “in the act of shooting?”


RULING: The act of shooting starts when the player begins the motion that normally precedes the release of the ball on a try for goal. If the official believes that the player is attempting a try (as opposed to a pass/dribble) the upward/downward motion of the hand(s) while holding the ball is normally considered to be a motion that “normally precedes the release of the ball in a try for goal.” (Rules 5-1.10 and 4-8]

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

*For case #1, the difference was due to the acknowledged use of different rule sets (i.e., NF vs. CCA?).

CCA is the Mechanics committee that the NCAA uses to apply mechanics and procedures. That is actually not rules.

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

As for case#2, the difference was ostensibly due the judgement of the particular officials (as you've surmised).

I have several videos on my Officiating Born Page that shows situations called where the foul is awarded, unlike your description. I can only address what I have seen previously. I think I am going to start posting videos from the NCAA Tournament and this play will be one of them.

Peace

[Kansas Ref]

Yes, "more restrictively defines..." : that's better phrasing! thanks Raymond.

Thanks for sharing JRutledge, Looking forward to the above-cited, and additional, critical vids.

[Indianaref]

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

There is not a single ref in this forum who hasn't passed on this type of play.

[Kansas Ref]

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." [John 8:7]

Hey, I'll be the first to confess that I've inadvertently missed this type of foul.

Ok, yes, you're probably right: we have committed such a "sin of omission" by failing to make the unmistakable "offensive holding" call 100% of the time in our respective games of which we officiate. However, a key question is "why" we fail to?
There are at minimum 3 reasons: 1) the display of the foul catches us by surprise, 2) we honestly didn't/couldn't see the foul regardless of 4 eyes or 6 eyes on the action, and 3) we quickly & momentarily weighed whether an advantage was gained by the foul and subconsciously chose to play on.