Its Got No Teeth ...

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Same here on the high school level. They attend one preseason coaches presentation and they suddenly think that they're rule experts, when, of course, they have absolutely no concept regarding the nuances and subtle aspects of the POE.

Sometimes, when I'm sitting at my first local meeting of the season, going over that year's new POE, I can often predict what the coaches will hear, and more importantly, not hear, thinking to myself, "Oh no, we'll be hearing about this from coaches all season long".

Our local interpreter can't use the same preseason presentation (Power Point, etc.) for the coaches as he does for officials. Two different audiences, two different presentations.

I have no problem at all with a coach pointing out that something is a point of emphasis for that season.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I have no problem at all with a coach pointing out that something is a point of emphasis for that season.

But we often hear these comments during irrelevant plays.

"Coach, that's not what the POE actually says."

"Coach, that was a moving opponent, time and distance DO apply."

Etcetera.

Coaches hear what they want to hear, and cherry pick to their own benefit.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... they have absolutely no concept regarding the nuances and subtle aspects of the POE ... what the coaches will hear, and more importantly, not hear ...

I'm not saying that all coaches are "rule challenged", but many are.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

But we often hear these comments during irrelevant plays.

"Coach, that's not what the POE actually says."

"Coach, that was a BLIND screen, time and distance apply."

Etcetera.

Coaches hear what they want to hear, and cherry pick to their own benefit.



I'm not saying that all coaches are "rule challenged", but many are.

I'm not talking about all those what-ifs. My point stands that coaches are aware of the POEs for each particular season.

POEs are for coaches and players, just as much as officials. I want them seeing the same training videos, slides, and examples that we see. That way we are all seeing and hearing the same message. I definitely don't want to hear coaches saying "well, in the clinic we received...." because I would have no idea if they are being truthful or accurate.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I want them seeing the same training videos, slides, and examples that we see.

Officials know the full background (past rules and interpretations) of all new rule changes and POE. Coaches often don't. Officials fully understand the philosophy of purpose and intent, and advantage disadvantage. Coaches tend to be more literal. Coaches tend to cherry pick, hearing what they want to hear. Officials see the big picture. Coaches often attend these preseason meetings reluctantly, under duress, somebody made them come. Officials often attend these preseason meetings reluctantly, under duress, somebody made them come.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Two different audiences, two different presentations.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

My point stands that coaches are aware of the POEs for each particular season.

And I'll stand with you, with emphasis (no pun intended) on the word "aware", which doesn't imply a completely full understanding.

Note: Locally, schools have to send one coach to the preseason meeting, sometimes the short straw is pulled by the freshman coach, and information doesn't always get accurately (if at all) moved up the ladder.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

But we often hear these comments during irrelevant plays.

And I stand by my statement. Over forty years, for the number of times I've heard a coach correctly complain about a point of emphasis for a relevant play, I've heard an almost equal number of coaches incorrectly complain about a point of emphasis for a irrelevant play.

And, certainly not very numerous, but I have heard coaches complain by mentioning a past (not distant past) point of emphasis , "Hey BillyMac, wasn't that a point of emphasis a few years ago?".

[JRutledge]

Why are we worried about what a coach thinks is a POE?

I ask this because yes coaches point them out sometimes, but many are unaware that was even mentioned or in the rules book or an interpretation. Are we officiating differently because they are aware or not aware of them? No!!! At least I am not.

Coaches have an agenda when they tell us stuff. It can often be wrong, but not all the time, but often wrong.

Had a coach one time try to get me to call a goaltending call because the POE that year was about slapping the backboard and the last relevant time I can remember when a coach mentioning the POE of that year. He was totally wrong and it was a month or so into the season that year.

Use your skill to explain or not explain these things to a coach. But I am not going to tell them something I am not aware of in some position that has never been openly discussed.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

And I'll stand with you, with emphasis (no pun intended) on the word "aware", which doesn't imply a completely full understanding.

Note: Locally, schools have to send one coach to the preseason meeting, sometimes the short straw is pulled by the freshman coach, and information doesn't always get accurately (if at all) moved up the ladder.


And I stand by my statement. Over forty years, for the number of times I've heard a coach correctly complain about a point of emphasis for a relevant play, I've heard an almost equal number of coaches incorrectly complain about a point of emphasis for a irrelevant play.

And, certainly not very numerous, but I have heard coaches complain by mentioning a past (not distant past) point of emphasis , "Hey BillyMac, wasn't that a point of emphasis a few years ago?".

Your view is very limited to a small corner of Connecticut. I apparently officiate coaches with a higher basketball IQ. I have definitely officiated a lot more localities and levels than you have.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Officials know the full background (past rules and interpretations) of all new rule changes and POE. Coaches often don't. Officials fully understand the philosophy of purpose and intent, and advantage disadvantage. Coaches tend to be more literal. Coaches cherry pick, hearing what they want to hear. Officials see the big picture. Coaches often attend these preseason meetings reluctantly, under duress, somebody made them come. Officials often attend these preseason meetings reluctantly, under duress, somebody made them come.

Again, if we are seeing the same materials all those what-ifs are moot. If you want coaches to get different material, go for it. Good luck in trying to figure out if they got the same message as you.

Your bolded statement is a huge assumption that is not true for most HS officials. Just b/c you're a history buff who thinks knowing a timeline of a rule is essential to enforcing the rule doesn't mean that's how others think or approach their rules knowledge.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Why are we worried about what a coach thinks is a POE? Are we officiating differently because they are aware or not aware of them? No!!! ... Had a coach one time try to get me to call a goaltending call because the POE that year was about slapping the backboard ... Use your skill to explain or not explain these things to a coach.

Nice post JRutledge.

Officiate differently? No. Agree.

Why are we worried? Worried may be too strong a word. The issue is that coaches often misunderstanding rule changes or points of emphases can spark "irritating" conversations.

Sounds like JRutledge was able to use his excellent game management skills to "defuse" his goaltending conversation, but it would have been nice if it never happened (don't know how to achieve that, can't live with coaches preseason meetings, can't live without them). In somebody else's game it could have been the straw that broke the camel's back. Tea time. One lump, or two?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Your bolded statement is a huge assumption that is not true for most HS officials.

Yeah, that's me looking at the world through rose colored glasses again. Glass half full, not half empty. One of my many character flaws.

I didn't mean going back to ancient rules and interpretations, but a solid understanding of rules and interpretations that is normally needed to be good official.

Unfortunately we've got more than a few local officials that don't know if the basketball is inflated or stuffed.

And they're not all rookies.

I know, I work with many of them in my mid-afternoon middle school games.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Nice post JRutledge.

Officiate differently? No. Agree.

Why are we worried? Worried may be too strong a word. The issue is that coaches often misunderstanding rule changes or points of emphases can spark "irritating" conversations.

Sounds like JRutledge was able to use his excellent game management skills to "defuse" his goaltending conversation, but it would have been nice if it never happened. In somebody else's game it could have been the straw that broke the camel's back. Tea time. One lump, or two?

You worry way too much about coaches and what they think and what they might say.

Know the rules, know how to quickly and concisely explain them, learn to communicate with coaches, learn when to ignore their comments, learn when to address their comments, learn when to penalize their comments. All these what-ifs worries of yours only lead to stagnation and officiating with fear instead of confidence.

[Raymond]

BTW, coaches don't get T's because they don't know the rules, they get them for unsporting behavior and conduct. I've never given a T to a coach for arguing about what a rule is.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Again, if we are seeing the same materials all those what-ifs are moot. If you want coaches to get different material, go for it. Good luck in trying to figure out if they got the same message as you.

I misspoke earlier. Coaches see the same slides, etc., that we see, but may get a slightly different oral explanation since their rules knowledge won't be as complete as the rules knowledge of officials.

Also, officials will often share "secrets" that only officials can say to other officials (protecting star players, different calls in close games versus lopsided games, rule of thumb shortcuts, etc.).

Over forty years ago, at my first preseason meeting, my interpreter used a stack of three by five index cards, a grease pen, and an overhead projector, to cover everything. We've progressed to Power Point slides, slides that often contain both the NFHS and the IAABO logo, and videotapes of plays.

This year, local IAABO boards, if they wish, can use an IAABO International professionally produced preseason presentation videotape, with a voice over, that includes static slides, and videos, of changes and points of emphasis. It has everything needed for a preseason presentation in one package.

Turn on the videotape, walk away, and take questions after the presentation.

Will certainly (if used) lead to consistent statewide (or international) presentations for both officials, and for coaches.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I misspoke earlier. Coaches see the same slides, etc., that we see, but may get a slightly different oral explanation since their rules knowledge won't be as complete as the rules knowledge of officials.

Also, officials will often share "secrets" that only officials can say to other officials (protecting star players, different calls in close games versus lopsided games, rule of thumb shortcuts, etc.).
...

I have no "secret handshakes". Again, maybe I'm just used to dealing with different types of coaches than you have in your little corner. I find just being honest about what I'm doing (I don't explain for my partners) is the best route. Also, my state is not in the habit of putting "secret handshake" material in the annual clinics.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

You worry way too much about coaches and what they think and what they might say.

Avoiding irritants is not the same as cowardly conduct. It's good game management.

Originally Posted by Raymond

... coaches don't get T's because they don't know the rules, they get them for unsporting behavior and conduct. I've never given a T to a coach for arguing about what a rule is.

What leads to the unsporting behavior and conduct? Most times it's a biased one sided view, or just anger at a missed call (we all miss calls occasionally), but sometimes it's due to a misinterpretation of a rule and 99% of the time the officials know the application of the rule better than the coach.

Example. Two years ago. Last minute of a close game. Small player in the act of shooting is barreled into by a much larger player like a linebacker hitting a running back. No attempt to block the shot, just a hard body check. Ball doesn't go in basket. I've got intentional foul for excessive contact. Coach questions me about my call, "That's not an intentional foul", as I report. I calmly take an extra step and explain my call to him. He actually agrees that there was excessive contact but that it isn't an intentional foul. I tell him that by definition, excessive contact is an intentional foul. I guess that didn't persuade him because as I walk back to administer the free throw, he questions me again, "That's not an intentional foul". So turn around to calmly talk to him again, leading with, "Was that contact excessive?". He replies that it was excessive and I tell him again that by definition, excessive contact is an intentional foul, and I walk back to administer the free throws with my partner. As we're lining up for the free throws he now proceeds to yell at me from across the gym, "You're wrong. That's not an intentional foul". Technical foul.

Definitely unsporting behavior and conduct. What lead to that? Arguing about what a rule is.