All I am saying is if when I show the picture, the foul took place, the habitual motion IMO has started.

My understanding the NBA uses the very same standard that is in our rules at the NF and NCAA levels. The NBA might use different language, but if you are fouled and you have stopped dribbling, (the NBA might call it a "gather."), but the line of demarcation is basically the same. If a player is fouled and clearly was going up to shoot the entire time, why split hairs and say it was before the shooting motion?

And yes we may not know for sure, but I think we have some indicators that make this easier if we use them. Of course, a player could pass, but if they do so then they are likely making a motion to pass or trying to pass the ball, which then I will let the player's action dictate what I call. Yes, I know there is a case play that says that should not be a factor, but usually, players that are trying to shoot clearly shoot the ball, or if they can't, we get paid to make those decisions.

All I am saying here is that in the video if the foul took place when the defender reached out, he clearly was in the motion to shoot. If he dribbles again, that is an indication he was not yet trying to shoot when fouled. We can try to be "pure" but that to me leads to inconsistent application.

Peace

"These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight."

That requires judgment. Different officials may have different standards of what constitutes the beginning of the throwing motion.

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I know this play is NFHS, but for completeness sake -- in NCAAW, the time of the foul is when the whistle sounds.

I do agree on trying to determine if the contact caused a disadvantage, and /or deciding that the disadvantage happened a few feet after the initial contact

Two Questions ...
 

When I first watched the video at normal speed, I determined that it was a "classic" continuous motion situation and to count the basket, but before I put my interpretation "out there" (to IAABO and to the Forum), I decided to watch the video again a slower speed and had the same polite debate in my head that JRutledge and Nevadaref are now having. When did the foul occur? When did the throwing motion start? I agree with JRutledge, both with his still photo of when the foul occurred, and his decision that the throwing motion had started before the foul.

I see Nevadaref's point. It's easy to interpret watching the video twice, including once at a slower speed; much harder to do in a real game, in real time.

Statute Of Limitations ...
 

Always to listen to bob, especially in dealing with NCAA-W.

However.

Even if the official decides to have a patient whistle and to see the entire play unfold? What if the official spits out his whistle, or forgets to put the whistle in his mouth (happened to me at least once after talking to a polite coach during a live ball), or sneezes, or was breathing in at the time of the foul?

I wish that I got a dollar every time that I said to coaches in high school games over forty years, "Yes, it was a late whistle coach, but it was the correct call".

https://i.pinimg.com/474x/98/ff/16/9...n-cartoons.jpg

I very much dislike the NCAA-W (and I think M, too) interpretation here. It leads to what I think are many undesirable results.

Some examples...B4 and A4, fighting for rebounding position, commit a foul. The shot is successful and falls through the basket. Then the official's whistle is sounded. The whistle was patient because they were just watching the play and deciding if it needed to be called and, it was too rough, so they call it. Now, by rule, the ball is dead when the try was successful. Since the foul is deemed to have occurred at the time of the whistle, this becomes a dead ball contact foul.

A2 sets a screen for A1 who is receiving a pass. B2 pushes through the screen before the pass reaches A1. A1 then catches the ball and shoots it. The whistle is sounded only once A1 has shot the ball. This means A1's shot counts and A2 gets the benefit of the foul as well. Then, on the next trip down, the situations are reversed but the calling official is a little quicker with the whistle and sounds it prior to the act of shooting....dead ball, no shot. You have the exact same play with two outcomes where the difference is not based on what the players did but on how quickly an official blew the whistle.

Fouls during this period are "normal" personal fouls in NCAAW. Adjudicate as if the ball were live.

For NCAA Men's shooting/continous motion, defensive fouls go by when the contact occurred, but for the offense you go with when the whistle sounded.

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Ok, for how long are they "normal" fouls?

What about the 2nd example? Was my conclusion correct? That you get a different ruling on exactly the same play based on how quickly the official blows the whistle?

That is what I previously argued should be the way it is done but I was told it was not the case.

Section 10. Personal Fouls
Art. 1. A personal foul is a player's illegal contact with an opponent during
a live ball and during the dead-ball period immediately following a successful
goal. (Note: Illegal contact that occurs before the ball becomes live at the start of the
game or after the ball has become dead following the end of any quarter or overtime
shall be either an intentional or disqualifying foul.)

Yes -- I think your second example is correct.