Fun With Continuous Motion …
IAABO Make The Call Video
https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...p8ZGXuCg%3D%3D Should this goal count? Was the continuous motion rule properly applied to this play? The official rules the ball handler was in the act of shooting when the foul occurred in the lane and awards the goal. Was this an accurate ruling? Two choices: This is an accurate ruling. This ruling is inaccurate. My comment: This is an accurate ruling. The ball does not become dead until the try or tap for field goal ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when a foul, other than player-control or team-control, occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for field goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight. The trying motion must be continuous and begins after the ball comes to rest in the player’s hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and is completed when the ball is clearly in flight. The trying motion may include arm, foot or body movements used by the player when throwing the ball at his/her basket. |
Good Spectatorship ...
Nice group of polite, not unruly fans in the far side bleachers.
I'm definitely not the best looking guy in the world, but those cheerleaders on the floor look like a pack of dogs. |
Cadence Whistle ...
Would have liked to have heard a cadence whistle from the Trail, waiting to see if the Lead had it (which he did).
I can almost hear the Black Team coach saying, "How can you call that from here?". |
Count the basket.
Peace |
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Lead Takes The Call ...
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I was forgetting that I was in Rome. Here in my little corner of Connecticut, we have a forty-plus year old local custom that when a double whistle occurs in specific situations like this, the Trail drops his fist, and the Lead takes the call. It a part of everybody's pregame, even pregames that only go slightly beyond, "Good eye contact", and, "Don't screw up". We've always been trained that way, from the cradle to the grave. Even though it's probably not fully "kosher" by NFHS (or IAABO) mechanics, it seems to work, no "blarges" in my games, or in games I've observed, in forty-plus years. Of course, once again, as usual, as always, when in Rome ... |
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Count it.
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I am not one to engage in post-foul chatiness with coaches; so, I found the refs "back n forth" with coach to be less than exemplary. In fact the ref almost stumbled into a player trying to report his foul. Regarding the play, the "continuous motion" principle was correctly applied. Good call ref! Personally, I m not one to do the fist punch/team control sign for the "and one"; rather I just use the NF sign. |
IAABO Survey Says …
Disclaimer: For IAABO eyes only. Below is not a NFHS interpretation, it's only an IAABO interpretation which obviously doesn't mean a hill of beans to most members of this Forum.
https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...p8ZGXuCg%3D%3D IAABO Play Commentary Correct Answer: This is an accurate ruling. If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try or tap for field goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight. (4-11) When the officials signal a foul has occurred, the ball handler is a step or two beyond the defender and is in the act of shooting. By counting the goal, the Trail official ruled that the ball handler had ended the dribble and was stepping toward the goal when the foul occurred. The other aspect of the play is the double whistle. The official who is ruling within their PCA should be primarily responsible for the ruling. The official ruling outside their PCA should generally drop their signal and defer to the primary official to signal the infraction. (2020-21 IAABO manual p. 23 13.b) The Trail should have deferred to the Lead to make this ruling in this play, as the play occurred in the Lead's PCA. Here is the breakdown of the IAABO members that commented on the video: This is an accurate ruling 53% (including me). This ruling is inaccurate 47%. |
Wow !!!
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When one looks up continuous motion in the dictionary, there's a picture of this play. |
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I will note that the IAABO ruling cites the incorrect moment at which to judge if the act of shooting had begun. The correct point is not when the official signals, but rather when the illegal contact occurs. |
If this is where the foul occurred, he never puts the ball back down to the floor. Count the basket IMO.
Didn't put this on my YouTube Page https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...=278&crop=fill Peace |
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The NFHS rules book states: "These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight." So show me when the player with the ball starts his throwing motion. That is not the same as merely catching the ball to end a dribble. That action happens before passing the ball too, so we can't know that the player is trying for goal simply from that. We must see more. When in this video do we first see some kind of movement which indicates that the player is attempting to throw the ball towards the goal? Does the foul occur before or after that moment? |
All I am saying is if when I show the picture, the foul took place, the habitual motion IMO has started.
My understanding the NBA uses the very same standard that is in our rules at the NF and NCAA levels. The NBA might use different language, but if you are fouled and you have stopped dribbling, (the NBA might call it a "gather."), but the line of demarcation is basically the same. If a player is fouled and clearly was going up to shoot the entire time, why split hairs and say it was before the shooting motion? And yes we may not know for sure, but I think we have some indicators that make this easier if we use them. Of course, a player could pass, but if they do so then they are likely making a motion to pass or trying to pass the ball, which then I will let the player's action dictate what I call. Yes, I know there is a case play that says that should not be a factor, but usually, players that are trying to shoot clearly shoot the ball, or if they can't, we get paid to make those decisions. All I am saying here is that in the video if the foul took place when the defender reached out, he clearly was in the motion to shoot. If he dribbles again, that is an indication he was not yet trying to shoot when fouled. We can try to be "pure" but that to me leads to inconsistent application. Peace |
"These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight."
That requires judgment. Different officials may have different standards of what constitutes the beginning of the throwing motion. Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk |
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I do agree on trying to determine if the contact caused a disadvantage, and /or deciding that the disadvantage happened a few feet after the initial contact |
Two Questions ...
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I see Nevadaref's point. It's easy to interpret watching the video twice, including once at a slower speed; much harder to do in a real game, in real time. |
Statute Of Limitations ...
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However. Even if the official decides to have a patient whistle and to see the entire play unfold? What if the official spits out his whistle, or forgets to put the whistle in his mouth (happened to me at least once after talking to a polite coach during a live ball), or sneezes, or was breathing in at the time of the foul? I wish that I got a dollar every time that I said to coaches in high school games over forty years, "Yes, it was a late whistle coach, but it was the correct call". https://i.pinimg.com/474x/98/ff/16/9...n-cartoons.jpg |
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Some examples...B4 and A4, fighting for rebounding position, commit a foul. The shot is successful and falls through the basket. Then the official's whistle is sounded. The whistle was patient because they were just watching the play and deciding if it needed to be called and, it was too rough, so they call it. Now, by rule, the ball is dead when the try was successful. Since the foul is deemed to have occurred at the time of the whistle, this becomes a dead ball contact foul. A2 sets a screen for A1 who is receiving a pass. B2 pushes through the screen before the pass reaches A1. A1 then catches the ball and shoots it. The whistle is sounded only once A1 has shot the ball. This means A1's shot counts and A2 gets the benefit of the foul as well. Then, on the next trip down, the situations are reversed but the calling official is a little quicker with the whistle and sounds it prior to the act of shooting....dead ball, no shot. You have the exact same play with two outcomes where the difference is not based on what the players did but on how quickly an official blew the whistle. |
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For NCAA Men's shooting/continous motion, defensive fouls go by when the contact occurred, but for the offense you go with when the whistle sounded.
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk |
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What about the 2nd example? Was my conclusion correct? That you get a different ruling on exactly the same play based on how quickly the official blows the whistle? |
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Art. 1. A personal foul is a player's illegal contact with an opponent during a live ball and during the dead-ball period immediately following a successful goal. (Note: Illegal contact that occurs before the ball becomes live at the start of the game or after the ball has become dead following the end of any quarter or overtime shall be either an intentional or disqualifying foul.) Yes -- I think your second example is correct. |
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