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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 03, 2021, 09:43am
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Fun With Arm Bars ...

IAABO Make The Call Video

https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...J4vivTJh4D.mp4

Is this a foul for handchecking? Observe the play and make a ruling as to whether, or not, the player (Red #. 4) commits a handchecking foul.

Two choices: This is a handchecking foul. This is not a handchecking foul.


My comment: This is a handchecking foul. Three separate extended arm bars (including switching arms) committed by Red #4 against ball handler White #0 over a period of about five seconds constitute a handchecking foul. This has to be cleaned up.
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Old Tue Aug 03, 2021, 10:27am
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I would like a look from another angle. And it appears nothing was influencing the RSBQ in any way. So I guess technically if there is touching yes this is a foul, but I would not be in love with these if he was able to move freely.

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Old Tue Aug 03, 2021, 10:53am
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Clean Up Illegal Contact On Ballhandlers ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
And it appears nothing was influencing the RSBQ in any way. So I guess technically if there is touching yes this is a foul ...
I was kind of on the fence on this call, looking for contact that influenced rhythm, speed, balance, and quickness (advantage/disadvantage).

However, over the past decade, the NFHS has been trying, through a rule change, and a Point of Emphasis, to clean up contact on ballhandlers:

Requires a personal foul be called any time this type of contact occurs on a player holding or dribbling the ball.

Needs this type of illegal contact on the perimeter ball handlers and dribblers eliminated.

Regardless of where it takes place on the court, when a player continuously places a hand on the ball handler/dribbler, it is a foul.

Hand checking is a foul and is not incidental contact.

Defensive players shall not have hand(s) on the offensive player. When a player has a hand on, two hands on or jabs a hand or forearm on an opponent, it is a foul.


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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Aug 04, 2021 at 01:12pm.
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Old Tue Aug 03, 2021, 10:55am
Do not give a damn!!
 
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If is early I hope this was called or at least something was addressed. But the bottom line it did not influence the movement of the player. So I would likely pass on that until it affected the player. When it does, no problem calling a foul. But do not see how much if any contact for the most part either. No problem if anyone calls it, but to me makes sense if not called.

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Old Tue Aug 03, 2021, 11:07am
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Handchecking ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
If is early I hope this was called or at least something was addressed. But the bottom line it did not influence the movement of the player. So I would likely pass on that until it affected the player. When it does, no problem calling a foul. But do not see how much if any contact for the most part either. No problem if anyone calls it, but to me makes sense if not called.
Up until about ten years ago, I, and almost all of my local colleagues, had the same philosophy as JRutledge, adjudicating handchecking, like most other fouls, based on advantage and disadvantage.

But after the NFHS, through a rule change, and a Point of Emphasis, clearly indicted that it wanted to clean up contact on ballhandlers, and especially with my local board (interpreters, trainers, assigners, and observers) strongly echoing the intent of the NFHS, I, and almost of my local colleagues, have made this, pretty much, an "automatic" call, that we try to get early in the game.

One doesn't want the first "technical" handchecking call of the game coming with two minutes left in a three point game.

I will admit that it took some time for adjustment, but eventually our local officials, coaches, players, and fans all got on the same "handchecking consistency" page.

As usual, when in Rome ...
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Aug 04, 2021 at 01:13pm.
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Old Tue Aug 03, 2021, 12:52pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
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I am very aware of the stance from the NF, but there is still a part of what we do that falls into some philosophy. If you call a foul every time a player defender touches another player, you will be calling fouls all day. That is why I said I would like better angles on this play and would like some RSBQ to be influenced. Like to see a little more of the player be affected than a touch. BTW, I probably call more hand-checking than most, but still want something to influence the play. But very aware of the wording and ruling. And if you call a foul you might not get much blowback, but still want to get the bigger ones and this seemed very small from the angle.

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Old Tue Aug 03, 2021, 01:24pm
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Hard To Believe ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
If you call a foul every time a player defender touches another player, you will be calling fouls all day.
My posts were only regarding handchecking fouls, not all fouls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I will admit that it took some time for adjustment, but eventually our local officials, coaches, players, and fans all got on the same "handchecking consistency" page.
I know that it's hard to believe, but here in my little corner of Connecticut we're not calling handchecking fouls all day when a defender simply touches a ballhandler.

We're not. Really.

We call the first one we see (as a reminder to all stakeholders), and take it from there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
One doesn't want the first "technical" handchecking call of the game coming with two minutes left in a three point game.
A decade later and I still find it hard to believe myself.

I never thought that this would be consistently enforced over time, and I was wrong.

Local interpreters, trainers, assigners, and observers all pushed a consistent approach to no tolerance for handchecking; Experienced veteran top-notch officials drank the Kool Aid and got onboard; journeymen officials and inexperienced officials followed their lead and example; and coaches, players, and fans adjusted.

It didn't happen overnight, but it did happen.

Coaches actually don't complain when "touch" handchecks are called.

They've gotten use to it and have adjusted, as have their players.

Coaches are actually more likely to complain when "touch" handchecks are not called.

You probably won't believe me, because I still find it hard to believe myself.

Local interpreters, trainers, assigners, and observers took the bull by the horns and voilà, here we are.

Of course, it helped to have the full backing of the NFHS.

Consistency is the key.



Again, when in Rome ...
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Aug 03, 2021 at 02:54pm.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 03, 2021, 01:39pm
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Leadership ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Local interpreters, trainers, assigners, and observers all pushed a consistent approach to no tolerance for handchecking; Experienced veteran top-notch officials drank the Kool Aid and got onboard; journeymen officials and inexperienced officials followed their lead and example; and coaches, players, and fans adjusted ... Local interpreters, trainers, assigners, and observers took the bull by the horns and voilà, here we are ...
I wish that the same thing would happen with fashion issues.

If we (local board) can all get on the same page with touch handchecks, why can't we all get on the same page with undershirts, headbands, wristbands, sleeves, etc.?

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.
If turnips were watches, I'd wear one by my side.
If "ifs" and "ands" were pots and pans,
There'd be no work for tinkers' hands.

(1605)
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Aug 03, 2021 at 01:46pm.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 03, 2021, 03:07pm
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I haven't seen the video yet, but I know in my little corner of Virginia, we don't call enough hand-checking fouls at the HS level. The lower the skill of the ball-handlers, the more likely a hand-check will disrupt him/her. I've seen ball-handlers get maneuvered every which way and the on-ball official is just oblivious, LOL.

The higher the skill level, I'm more patient to see if the contact is actually affecting the ball-handler or preventing him from doing what he wants to do.
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Old Tue Aug 03, 2021, 04:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I haven't seen the video yet, but I know in my little corner of Virginia, we don't call enough hand-checking fouls at the HS level. The lower the skill of the ball-handlers, the more likely a hand-check will disrupt him/her. I've seen ball-handlers get maneuvered every which way and the on-ball official is just oblivious, LOL.

The higher the skill level, I'm more patient to see if the contact is actually affecting the ball-handler or preventing him from doing what he wants to do.
I agree.

And the funny thing about those that don't want to call it because they think they'll be calling it all day....call a few and the defenders just stop doing it. There is a small adjustment period but after that you end up with no more fouls than before.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 03, 2021, 04:48pm
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Adjustments...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
... we don't call enough hand-checking fouls at the HS level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
... call a few and the defenders just stop doing it. There is a small adjustment period but after that you end up with no more fouls than before.
I think that one may actually end up with a fewer fouls to call.

Coaches and players have to adjust, there really isn't an alternative, other than star players and other starters sitting on benches in foul trouble, lots of player disqualifications, lots of free throws being attempted, and visiting coaches being forced to sit on cold buses in snowy parking lots.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Aug 03, 2021 at 06:13pm.
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Old Tue Aug 03, 2021, 05:10pm
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Clean Up On Aisle Three ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Coaches and players have to adjust, there really isn't an alternative ...
Two minutes into the first period, star guard is called for a "touch" handcheck after placing two hands on the ballhandler for a few seconds. He, and his teammates that saw the foul think, "We're not getting way with those tonight". His opponents that saw the foul think, "We're not getting way with those tonight". Both coaches think, "We're not getting way with those tonight. As long as they call these both ways".

Of course, we occasionally come across a few knucklehead players and a few knucklehead coaches who really aren't very bright and who will fail to adjust and find themselves sitting long stretches, or the rest of the game, on the team bench; or on a bench in the locker room, or on a seat on a cold bus in a snowy parking lot.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Aug 03, 2021 at 06:13pm.
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Old Tue Aug 03, 2021, 05:28pm
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For The Greater Good Of The Cause ...

10-7-12: The following acts constitute a foul when committed against a ball handler/dribbler. A player becomes a ball handler when he/she receives the ball. This would include a player in a post position.
a. Placing two hands on the player.
b. Placing an extended arm bar on the player.
c. Placing and keeping a hand on the player.
d. Contacting the player more than once with the same hand or alternating hands.

10.7.12 SITUATION A: A1 is dribbling in the frontcourt and B1 (a) places two hands on the dribbler; (b) places an extended arm bar on the dribbler; (c) places and keeps a hand on the dribbler; (d) contacts the dribbler more than once with the same hand or alternating hands. RULING: Illegal in all cases. A personal foul shall be ruled any time this type of contact occurs on a player holding or dribbling the ball. (10-6-12)

2014-15 NFHS Basketball Rules Changes
In an effort to eliminate excessive contact on ball-handlers and dribblers outside of the lane area, the committee added Article 12 to Rule 10-6 on contact. As a result, the following acts will constitute a foul when committed against a ball-handler/dribbler: 1) placing two hands on the player, 2) placing an extended arm bar on the player, 3) placing and keeping a hand on the player and 4) contacting the player more than once with the same hand or alternating hands. Rationale: Rather than continuing to make hand-checking a point of emphasis year after year, simply add a brand new rule that requires a personal foul be called any time this type of contact occurs on a player holding or dribbling the ball outside of the lane area. The NFHS game needs this type of illegal contact on the perimeter ball handlers and dribblers eliminated.

2012-13 Points Of Emphasis
Examples of illegal contact are: Hand checking. Any tactic using hands or arms that allows a player on offense or defense to control the movement of an opposing player.
Examples of hand checking foul.
1. Both hands on an opposing player
2. Jabbing a hand or forearm on an opponent.
3. Continuous contact by a hand or forearm on an opponent


Also, at various times in the past:
Regardless of where it takes place on the court, when a player continuously places a hand on the ball handler/dribbler, it is a foul.
Hand checking is a foul and is not incidental contact.
Defensive players shall not have hand(s) on the offensive player. When a player has a hand on, two hands on or jabs a hand or forearm on an opponent, it is a foul.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Aug 03, 2021 at 05:31pm.
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Old Tue Aug 03, 2021, 11:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
My posts were only regarding handchecking fouls, not all fouls.
I was only talking about this video. I was not talking about other fouls. I do not need to talk holistically about fouls, in general, to get my point across here.

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  #15 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 04, 2021, 09:54am
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This is a foul. At .03-.04 the defender puts the back of his hand on the stomach of the offensive player as he trys to turn and accelerate. These are the type of plays where maybe you are unsure if it is effecting RSBQ or the play but the offensive player needs the ability to accelerate away from the defender and create space with speed. This is prevented by the hand actions of the defender.
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