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Peace
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Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael Mick Chambers (1947-2010) |
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Hot Stove Touch ...
And so did I.
One touches a hot stove and one immediately withdrawals one's hand because it burns one's hand and is painful. And one doesn't touch the hot stove a second time because one learns from one's first mistake. That exactly what the rule tells us is allowed and not allowed. One single "hot stove" handcheck touch is legal (if it isn't illegal, it's legal). Curiosity causes one to touch a hot stove. And one can't "keep ... a hand on the player". Because one's hand is burned and it's painful. A "more than once" second hot stove touch is illegal handchecking. One learns from a past mistake and doesn't want to get burned again. 10-7-12: The following acts constitute a foul when committed against a ball handler/dribbler. a. Placing two hands on the player. b. Placing an extended arm bar on the player. c. Placing and keeping a hand on the player. d. Contacting the player more than once with the same hand or alternating hands. How is it described differently than the rule? And I agree 100% with JRutledge's hot stove interpretation ("allowed one touch of the ball handler and then have to remove that arm immediately and it not be a foul").
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Aug 05, 2021 at 10:00am. |
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You might want to pull up the thread where we argued what the definition of "hot stove" touching is.
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
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A-hole formerly known as BNR |
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I Did Find A Nice Image ...
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Some experienced, veteran Forum members say that the decade old change actually wasn't a big change, that is was there, in less clear form, all the time, but that officials were doing a "piss-poor" job of enforcing (relying too heavily on advantage/disadvantage). Observations from both long-time veteran officials, and from those that played back in the day, say that semi-legal handchecking only became a "thing" twenty, or thirty years ago, and that back forty, or fifty, years ago there was a zero tolerance policy in place, that somehow evolved (as the game of basketball often does) into handchecking becoming more acceptable, thus the need for a change ten years ago re-set back to a zero (almost zero) tolerance. If I recall correctly, back when I was playing basketball in the late 1960's, early 1970's, a defender placing a hand on a ball handler was strictly verboten. In my search I found that there was no real closure, or consensus, to the advantage-disadvantage/automatic debate due to a few veteran, experienced, Forum members who really stick to their guns in the face of opposition from many similar veteran, experienced, Forum members. Gotta admire persistence and tenacity, especially with a minority opinion. This was much to my dismay because anybody who's been on the Forum for any length of time knows how much I appreciate closure or consensus. Quote:
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Aug 05, 2021 at 03:30pm. |
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Oh, The Humanity ...
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If you enjoy watching archival film of the Hindenburg disaster, you'll enjoy this thread. 191 posts, spanning NFHS, NCAAM, and NCAAW, with no closure or consensus. Quote:
Surprisingly, for some reason, I chose not to join the debate, just three posts by me. I know. Hard to believe. I must have been busy with non-minutiae stuff that day. Maybe because I was still working my day job as a chemist back in 2014. Somebody had to make sure that Connecticut's water was safe. https://forum.officiating.com/basket...tml#post940999
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Aug 05, 2021 at 04:57pm. |
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Hands Off ...
I was wrong. It is an interpretation, an old one, but it does exist.
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For the record, I'm not adverse to a warning, the lower the level, the more I am likely to warn. Yeah, I know, I'm a rebel.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Aug 06, 2021 at 10:39am. |
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The coaches and players here have adjusted well to the '12-13 POE and the '14-15 rule change. There's so few of us working games in the Interior which actually helps us being consistent to with whatever "thing" we're trying to deal with. |
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Capital Letters, Exclamation Marks ...
I pulled out my old rulebooks (printed on dead trees) to check it out.
2001-2002 POE Handchecking, Rough Play, Hands Off Defenders are not permitted to have hands on the dribbler! The measuring up of an opponent (tagging) is hand-checking, is not permitted, and is a FOUL. Use of a forearm, regardless of the duration of the contact is A FOUL. Hand-checking is not incidental contact. The capital letters are not mick's. The capital letters, and the exclamation mark, were put there by the NFHS. I'm pretty sure that the capital letters and exclamation mark were put there by the NFHS for a reason. This Point of Emphasis, and the annual interpretation from the same year, makes the NFHS philosophy on handchecking pretty clear. 2001-2002 Interpretations Part 2 SITUATION 17: Al is slowly dribbling the ball up the court. Bl is lightly “tagging” Al, but is not impeding Al’s forward motion. The official warns Bl to “keep hands off.” RULING: This is a foul. There is no warning. (10-6-1) Once again, and as usual, when in Rome ...
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Aug 06, 2021 at 10:57am. |
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Billy,
Are you confused what a handcheck is under the rules? Or are you arguing a point that no one is saying at this point? What does a POE have to do with a current rule that was written 10 years later? Peace
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Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael Mick Chambers (1947-2010) |
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Long Lived NFHS Philosophy ...
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Furthermore, the NFHS has taken the philosophy of advantage/disadvantage (the usual philosophy for almost all other types of fouls) and removed it from the handchecking equation, evolving to "automatic" handchecking fouls. Also, a deep dive into the rulebook, Points of Emphasis, and interpretations tells us that this "automatic" handchecking foul philosophy wasn't anything brand new in 2012-13 or 2014-15, but can be traced back, at least, to 2001-2002. Some older Forum members also believe that this may go further back, all the way back to their playing days way back in the 1960's, but that's, at best, only anecdotal evidence. Quote:
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Aug 06, 2021 at 12:56pm. |
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Peace
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Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael Mick Chambers (1947-2010) Last edited by JRutledge; Fri Aug 06, 2021 at 12:46pm. |
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Local Philosophy ...
Too late, I already did.
Everyone here on the Forum understands that one's "local" philosophy is the most important philosophy, it's what gets one assignments, promotions, and leadership positions. But this is not a "local" Forum. What's correct in Illinois, or Indiana, may be incorrect, or correct, in Connecticut, Virginia, Alaska, Missouri, Nevada, California, Oregon, Wisconsin, Ohio, Maryland, etc. The one unifying philosophy all high school Forum members share is the NFHS. It's certainly alright (more than alright, it's great) to have one's own "local" philosophy, it's how one locally moves up the ladder and stays on top, but one shouldn't try to use that "local" philosophy as a "correct" philosophy on the Forum when the NFHS clearly indicates otherwise, because it's only "correct" locally and should only be described as such (only locally correct). That doesn't mean that it's not important, and that it lacks value, but rather, that it is only important locally and only has value locally. And a "local" philosophy doesn't have to be defended by "stretching" NFHS rule language (and it's alright to locally ignore NFHS rule language), it is what it is, "local", and needs no defending, maybe it's a better philosophy, maybe it's a poorer philosophy, or maybe it's just simply different, something that works really well for the officials in that "local" area. It is what it is, nothing more, nothing less. No need to try to convince everyone on the Forum that it's the one true correct philosophy. Few things not "kosher" according to the NFHS will be "universal". Once again, and as usual, and always, when in Rome ...
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Aug 06, 2021 at 06:27pm. |
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No Clear Look ...
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No contact, no foul. Can't see contact, no foul. Handcheck contact (short of a single, short-lived, hot stove touch), "automatic" foul. Once again, and as usual, and always, when in Rome ...
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Aug 06, 2021 at 12:59pm. |
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Straight-Lined ...
We call it "straight-lined".
If you can't see it, then you can't call it. And one can't "move to improve" in a video.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36) |
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Quote:
Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael Mick Chambers (1947-2010) |
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