Tip Me Over And Pour Me Out ...

[BillyMac]

9.2.5 SITUATION A: Thrower A1 inadvertently steps onto the court inbounds. A1 immediately steps back into normal out-of-bounds throw-in position. The contact with the court was during a situation: (a) with; or (b) without defensive pressure on the throw-in team. RULING: A violation in both (a) and (b). COMMENT: Whether or not there was defensive pressure or whether or not stepping on the court was inadvertent, it is a violation and no judgment is required in making the call.

9-2-10 Note: The thrower may penetrate the plane provided he/she does not touch the inbounds area or a player inbounds before the ball is released on the throw-in pass.

9-2-5: The thrower must not carry the ball onto the court.

9-2-10 Note and 9-2-5 are rules in the rulebook, not casebook plays or interpretations.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

In fact, I’m having difficulty finding a clear rule, not a case play or interpretation, stating that contacting the court inbounds would constitute leaving a designated throw-in spot.

It's not a throwin violation for leaving a designated spot, but it's still a throwin violation for 9-2-5 and 9-2-10 Note.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The problem here is that “carry the ball onto the court” is not defined by the NFHS. I believe that the NFHS rules pertaining to ... carrying the ball onto the court should be defined clearly in the rules book, not just interpreted in the case book.

Is “carry the ball onto the court” (9-2-5: The thrower must not carry the ball onto the court) clarified by a combination of 9-2-10 Note (a rule) and 9.2.5 SITUATION A (a casebook play)?

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

No rule clearly tells us that a thrower placing one foot inbounds is a throw-in violation. We can only get that info from the casebook.

... and 9-2-10 Note and 9-2-5 (both rules, not casebook plays).

Two rules (9-2-5 and 9-2-10 Note), and a casebook play (9.2.5 SITUATION A), with a dash of purpose and intent, should put this issue to bed.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

9-2-10 Note: The thrower may penetrate the plane provided he/she does not touch the inbounds area or a player inbounds before the ball is released on the throw-in pass.

Did the NFHS slip one past me? Did it alter 9-2-10 Note and not announce it? I’ll have to consult some older versions of the rules book, but there is no way that “or a player inbounds” was in there when I was instructing.

Excellent citation for the “not touch the inbounds area” part. Perhaps still unclear for my scenario in which the thrower pushes the ball to the floor (inbounds) without releasing it. Although I would contend that is carrying the ball onto the court.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Did the NFHS slip one past me? Did it alter 9-2-10 Note and not announce it?

The NFHS has to get up pretty early in the morning to slip one past Nevadaref.

"9-2-10 Note: The thrower may penetrate the plane provided he/she does not touch the inbounds area or a player inbounds before the ball is released on the throw-in pass" first appeared in this form in 2010-11.

Previous to 2010-11 (at least back to 1996-97, the oldest rulebook in my library) it simply stated: "The thrower may penetrate the plane provided he/she does not touch the inbounds area before the ball is released on the throw-in pass".

I believe that additional rule language was unannounced in 2010-11. Typical for the NFHS. Stupid NFHS.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Additionally, we have this bogus NFHS interpretation for throw-ins from about the same time as the use change being discussed. From the 2009-10 NFHS Interpretation: SITUATION 1: A1 has the ball out of bounds for a throw-in and is being guarded by B1. Before releasing the ball, A1 loses his/her balance, reaches out and puts his/her hand on B1 (who is inbounds) in an effort to regain his/her balance. RULING: Throw-in violation by A1. A1 is required to remain out of bounds until releasing the throw-in pass. When A1 touches an inbounds player, he/she now has inbound status. However, if the contact on B1 is illegal, a personal foul should be called. COMMENT: A throw-in violation must be called in order to maintain the balance between offense and defense. (2-3; 9-2-1; 9-2-5)

Nevadaref probably had a valid gripe (still, doesn't one think that "bogus" is a little over the top) before the additional wording was added (unannounced) in 2010-11.

Odd that the annual (2009-10) interpretation (later a caseplay) came before the rule language addition (2010-11)?

Maybe it was a subsequent response by the NFHS to complaints by officials (like Nevadaref) about the annual interpretation?

If it was a subsequent response to complaints, shouldn't the year-later rule language addition been announced?

Stupid NFHS.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

The NFHS has to get up pretty early in the morning to slip one past Nevadaref.

"9-2-10 Note: The thrower may penetrate the plane provided he/she does not touch the inbounds area or a player inbounds before the ball is released on the throw-in pass" first appeared in this form in 2010-11.

Previous to 2010-11 (at least back to 1996-97, the oldest rulebook in my library) it simply stated: "The thrower may penetrate the plane provided he/she does not touch the inbounds area before the ball is released on the throw-in pass".

I believe that additional rule language was unannounced in 2010-11. Typical for the NFHS. Stupid NFHS.



Nevadaref probably had a valid gripe (still, doesn't one think that "bogus" is a little over the top) before the additional wording was added (unannounced) in 2010-11.

Odd that the annual (2009-10) interpretation (later a caseplay) came before the rule language addition (2010-11)?

Maybe it was a subsequent response by the NFHS to complaints by officials (like Nevadaref) about the annual interpretation?

If it was a subsequent response to complaints, shouldn't the year-later rule language addition been announced?

Stupid NFHS.

I learned something from this thread. That is a good thing.
However, the NFHS needs to edit the case play below and strike the following sentences. Neither are true.


9.2.5 SITUATION B: A1 has the ball out of bounds for a throw-in and is being guarded by B1. Before releasing the ball, A1 loses his/her balance, reaches out and puts his/her hand on B1 (who is inbounds) in an effort to regain his/her balance. RULING: Throw-in violation by A1. A1 is required to remain out of bounds until releasing the throw-in pass. When A1 touches an inbounds player, he/she has inbound status. However, if the contact on B1 is illegal, a personal foul shall be called. (9-2-10 Note)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

... the NFHS needs to edit the case play below and strike the following sentences. Neither are true.

9.2.5 SITUATION B: A1 has the ball out of bounds for a throw-in and is being guarded by B1. Before releasing the ball, A1 loses his/her balance, reaches out and puts his/her hand on B1 (who is inbounds) in an effort to regain his/her balance. RULING: Throw-in violation by A1. A1 is required to remain out of bounds until releasing the throw-in pass. When A1 touches an inbounds player, he/she has inbound status. However, if the contact on B1 is illegal, a personal foul shall be called. (9-2-10 Note)

A1 is required to remain out of bounds until releasing the throw-in pass?

That's true.

9-2-10 Note: The thrower may penetrate the plane provided he/she does not touch the inbounds area or a player inbounds before the ball is released on the throw-in pass

When A1 touches an inbounds player, he/she has inbound status?

We can debate the explanation/rationale, but it's still a throwin violation by rule.

9-2-10 Note: The thrower may penetrate the plane provided he/she does not touch the inbounds area or a player inbounds before the ball is released on the throw-in pass

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A1 is required to remain out of bounds until releasing the throw-in pass?

That's true.

Actually, it’s not.

Let’s take the case of an end line throw-in following a goal.
A1 may secure the ball, take it out of bounds, look for an open teammate, place the ball on the floor in the out of bounds area, and step inbounds. At this point either A1 or any of his teammates can now move out of bounds, pick up the ball, and make a throw-in pass. So the above requirement is false for this situation, and since it isn’t true for all situations, it is false.

Now if you wish to limit the above statement to only designated-spot throw-ins, then it works because in order to put the ball down and then come inbounds the thrower would have to leave the designated spot.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

9.2.5 SITUATION B: A1 has the ball out of bounds for a throw-in and is being guarded by B1. Before releasing the ball, A1 loses his/her balance, reaches out and puts his/her hand on B1 (who is inbounds) in an effort to regain his/her balance. RULING: Throw-in violation by A1. A1 is required to remain out of bounds until releasing the throw-in pass. When A1 touches an inbounds player, he/she has inbound status. However, if the contact on B1 is illegal, a personal foul shall be called. (9-2-10 Note)

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Let’s take the case of an end line throw-in following a goal. A1 may secure the ball, take it out of bounds, look for an open teammate, place the ball on the floor in the out of bounds area, and step inbounds. At this point either A1 or any of his teammates can now move out of bounds, pick up the ball, and make a throw-in pass. So the above requirement is false for this situation, and since it isn’t true for all situations, it is false.

Excellent post. I agree. Like me, Nevadaref likes to use extreme examples to put rule language to a test.

In this situation, 9-2-10-Note fails the "stress test".

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

... my scenario in which the thrower pushes the ball to the floor (inbounds) without releasing it. Although I would contend that is carrying the ball onto the court.

And I would agree.

Good time to confirm with the young'uns that it is not a dribble when a inbounds player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once.

4.15 COMMENT: … It is not a dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once.

In addition: 4-42-NOTE: The traveling and dribbling rules are not in effect for a throw-in.