Fun With Up And Down …

BillyMac · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 05, 2021, 11:01am

IAABO Make The Call Video

https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...%2FMYUhw%3D%3D

Is this a traveling violation? Observe the play and make a judgment as to whether or not this is a traveling violation?

Two choices: This is a traveling violation. This is not a traveling violation.

My comment: This is not a traveling violation. A player can't travel while fumbling the ball. During a fumble the player is not in control of the ball, and therefore, cannot be called for a traveling violation. A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball is unintentionally dropped, or slips from a player’s grasp. After a player has fumbled the ball, that player may recover the ball without violating. Any steps taken during the recovery of a fumble are not traveling. It is always legal to recover a fumble.

BillyMac · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 05, 2021, 11:03am

Any chance that this could be considered a try for goal? A shooter can always retrieve his own airball if the official considers it to be a shot attempt.

BillyMac · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 05, 2021, 11:09am

Looked at it again. Did he really fumble the ball, or did he change his mind and decide not to shoot?

Do either of these (from the Misunderstood Rules List) apply?

When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and touches the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. When an airborne shooter fumbles the ball (while still in the air) instead of releasing the ball on a try, drops the ball, and then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball, it’s a traveling violation.

bob jenkins · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 05, 2021, 11:15am

Travel.

You state:

Quote:

It is always legal to recover a fumble.

From where do you get that?

SITUATION 1: Al is an airborne shooter preparing to release the ball on a shot attempt. Instead of releasing the ball on the try, Al fumbles the ball (while stifi in the air) and drops it. Al then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball. RULING: Traveling violation. While airborne the bail must be released for a try or pass. (4—43-3a; 94)

JRutledge · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 05, 2021, 11:24am

I've got a play on. He clearly fumbled the ball and can recover that fumble. Or even if you say it is a shot attempt, he can get his own shot. I think this looked funny and the official called what people would accept.

Peace

BillyMac · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 05, 2021, 11:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

From where do you get that (It is always legal to recover a fumble)?

Something often claimed by four different highly regarded local interpreters over the past forty years. Possibly a "Rule of Thumb" that may have some exceptions (although exceptions have never been mentioned).

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

SITUATION 1: A1 is an airborne shooter preparing to release the ball on a shot attempt. Instead of releasing the ball on the try, Al fumbles the ball (while still in the air) and drops it. A1 then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball. RULING: Traveling violation. While airborne the bail must be released for a try or pass. (4—43-3a; 94)

Nice citation (2000-2001 BASKETBALL INTERPRETATIONS SUPPLEMENT) bob jenkins. Thanks.

Does "drops it" imply a deliberate act or an accidental act and does it make a difference? Does the different order of events in the citation versus the video make any difference (video player secured possession before returning to the floor)? Does the citation player regain possession after the fumble and before the drop? Did the video player release the ball on a try?

I don't have definite answers for my questions, certainly not good enough answers to go to bat for and to die on a hill for (sorry about the mixed metaphors).

This is a great play to discuss.

BillyMac · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 05, 2021, 11:58am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think this looked funny and the official called what people would accept.

Certainly accepted by the shooter.

JRutledge · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 05, 2021, 12:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Certainly accepted by the shooter.

Yeah, he does not know the rule either.

Peace

BillyMac · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 05, 2021, 12:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Yeah, he does not know the rule either.

That's “Buddy” Boeheim, son of Syracuse head coach Jim Boeheim.

JRutledge · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 05, 2021, 02:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

That's “Buddy” Boeheim, son of Syracuse head coach Jim Boeheim.

You mean the son of a coach does not know a rule? Of course they don't.

Peace

Nevadaref · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 05, 2021, 04:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Travel.

You state: From where do you get that?

SITUATION 1: Al is an airborne shooter preparing to release the ball on a shot attempt. Instead of releasing the ball on the try, Al fumbles the ball (while stifi in the air) and drops it. Al then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball. RULING: Traveling violation. While airborne the bail must be released for a try or pass. (4—43-3a; 94)

Since the video clip is from an NCAA contest, I will point out that the NCAA issued an AR fairly recently which states that an airborne player who fumbles the ball may recover it without violating. As Bob posted above the old NFHS interpretation provides the opposite ruling at the HS level.

Robert Goodman · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 05, 2021, 08:07pm

Can I correctly infer from Billy Mac and bob jenkins's quotes that one is not allowed to start a dribble with no foot on the floor? That if a player who's not touching the floor releases the ball, that action cannot result in a dribble?

bob jenkins · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 05, 2021, 08:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Can I correctly infer from Billy Mac and bob jenkins's quotes that one is not allowed to start a dribble with no foot on the floor? That if a player who's not touching the floor releases the ball, that action cannot result in a dribble?

Assuming the player had the ball with a pivot foot on the floor and then raised the pivot foot, all the player can do is shoot, pass or request a TO.

Starting a dribble is a violation.

Nevadaref · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 05, 2021, 09:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Can I correctly infer from Billy Mac and bob jenkins's quotes that one is not allowed to start a dribble with no foot on the floor? That if a player who's not touching the floor releases the ball, that action cannot result in a dribble?

An airborne player could catch a pass or secure a rebound and quickly start a dribble prior to landing.

Robert Goodman · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 06, 2021, 07:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Assuming the player had the ball with a pivot foot on the floor and then raised the pivot foot, all the player can do is shoot, pass or request a TO.

Starting a dribble is a violation.

But how does anyone know it's a dribble until the ball is touched again? Is the violation then retroactive to when the player released the ball, starting the dribble? Or when the player touches the ball again, making it a dribble?