And 1 or 2 FTs?

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I think it's in: The ball becomes dead when .... time expires.

Note that while there's and exception for a try in flight, there's no exception for continuous motion, as there is for when the defense commits a foul

But in the scenario, the whistle sounded a discernible time before the buzzer sounded. Doesn't that mean the clock should have been stopped and that time did not expire? So the continuous motion on the foul would mean count the basket?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

But in the scenario, the whistle sounded a discernible time before the buzzer sounded. Doesn't that mean the clock should have been stopped and that time did not expire? So the continuous motion on the foul would mean count the basket?

If the foul is properly called and the clock is properly stopped, then if it is before the buzzer, then you should put time back on the clock. So this should not be an issue. Now if the buzzer goes off and the shooter is fouled afterward, then that is a different story. But it sounds like this would be treated like any other foul that would take place before time has expired.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If the foul is properly called and the clock is properly stopped, then if it is before the buzzer, then you should put time back on the clock.

Why put time back on the clock if it was "properly stopped"?

Is it possible that JRutledge is referring to one of those odd, rare 00.00.00 with no horn situations?

00.00.00 (with clock properly stopped) with no horn doesn't mean one puts time back the clock, one actually doesn't put time back on the clock, it means that the period hasn't ended (assuming that the horn is working properly). Finish the period with ten players on the court (other than free throws, obviously no catch and shoot).

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... it sounds like this would be treated like any other foul that would take place before time has expired.

True, but possibly over simplified. It wasn't like "any other foul that (took) take place before time has expired". There was a foul, then an unusual time delay, and then the buzzer sounded. Sounds like the timekeeper was asleep at the switch. First the officials have to deal with definite knowledge, and only if they have such definite knowledge, only then can they put time back on the clock and "(treat it) like any other foul that ... take(s) place before time has expired".

Of course, then the officials have to deal with whether, or not, the continuous motion was actually "continuous" (see my post #8 above). Please note that I'm not saying that this situation wasn't continuous, I just wanted to explore a hypothetical extrapolation of this situation to quench my own curiosity.

[JRutledge]

Billy,

Sometimes you make this too complicated. If there is a foul before the horn, put some time back on the clock. That is it. You know the foul was before the horn. If you are watching the clock anyway, you can see how much time is on the clock too. Not that difficult, just put time on the clock even if it is .2, and shoot like normal. The way most gyms are configured too, usually the clock is somewhere in the view of both ends. But if you do not have that, still get together and put some time on the clock.

Also, the use of the word discernible was not used to mirror specific rulebook language. The term was used to suggest that if you can determine the foul was before the clock ran out, then put time on the clock. Not every commentary has to use perfect rules-language if we are talking about a way to figure out one thing happening over another thing. You likely know if one happened first.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If there is a foul before the horn, put some time back on the clock. That is it. You know the foul was before the horn. If you are watching the clock anyway, you can see how much time is on the clock too. Not that difficult, just put time on the clock even if it is .2, and shoot like normal.

Definite knowledge certainly can be, "See how much time is on the clock", as JRutledge so stated. Officials can also legally use displayed counts and/or mental counts. However officials cannot legally (by the rulebook) use back tracked post event estimated counts (except for a single specific, very rare exception).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... see how much time is on the clock ... if you do not have that, still get together and put some time on the clock.

Absolutely. As long the time was based on a rules based displayed count (five seconds, ten seconds), or a rules based mental count (three seconds, countdown clock that some officials have in their heads near the end of a period). However it can't be an illegal (not rule based) back tracked post event estimated (guess) count (with one very specific, very rare exception).

JRutledge: Are you paying attention to my wink, wink, nod, nod practical real live game management officiating, because it's not the same as my written exam rulebook officiating.

For the written exam:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

5-10-1 The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock. If the referee determines that the clock malfunctioned or was not started/stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official’s count or other official information may be used to make a correction.

In a real game:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Definite information includes an official observing (or, wink, wink, nod, nod, claiming that he observed) the scoreboard clock at the exact time of the whistle ...

Coach: "Hey JRutledge. How did you know how much time to put back on the clock?"

JRutledge: "I got together with my handsome partner, BillyMac, and he assured me that he got a peek at the clock out of the corner of his eye when I sounded my whistle."

BillyMac to JRutledge: Wink, wink, nod, nod.

And scene.

[BillyMac]

The "allowed lag time rule" is long gone, it's ancient history, but when officials are 100% sure that the foul was before the horn, but have no definite knowledge regarding how much time (because it was infinitesimally short), can't the officials count baskets, or allow free throws to be attempted, without time added to the clock and with no rebounders on the lanes?

5-6-2-3: If a foul occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires or after time expires, but while the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal, the quarter or extra period ends when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... a way to figure out one thing happening over another thing. You likely know if one happened first.

Reminds me of my undergraduate Historical Geology class with Mr. Tolley. Relative ages tell geologists the order of events. Cretaceous rock layers and fossils are younger then Jurassic rock layers and fossils (think Grand Canyon, normally younger sedimentary rock layers are on top of older sedimentary rock layers (Principle of Superposition)). But how much younger, and exactly how old are each? Absolute ages, using radioactive dating techniques (Uranium-Lead, Potassium-Argon, etc.) can tell us actual ages (with numbers)

[BigT]

Case book 5.6.2 Sit D states you cant count the basket if the release of the ball is after the horn.

Thanks everyone who chipped in here. I really love this forum.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If the foul is properly called and the clock is properly stopped, then if it is before the buzzer, then you should put time back on the clock.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Why put time back on the clock if it was "properly stopped"?

Still curious about an explanation as to why an official would put time back on a clock that "properly stopped".

If it was it was a rare 00:00:00 with no horn situation, the period isn't over, the ten players still have to finish the period, and it's not necessary (nor legal) to add time to the clock (assuming said clock properly stopped).

Now, if the clock was improperly stopped (timekeeper was asleep at the switch), only then, with definite knowledge (of many types, however it can't be an illegal back tracked post event estimated count), can officials put time back on the clock.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

But in the scenario, the whistle sounded a discernible time before the buzzer sounded. Doesn't that mean the clock should have been stopped and that time did not expire? So the continuous motion on the foul would mean count the basket?

Discernible? Not defined by the NFHS.

Definite information includes an official observing (or, wink, wink, nod, nod, claiming that he observed) the scoreboard clock at the exact time of the whistle, or a displayed count (five seconds, ten seconds), or a mental count (three seconds, countdown clock that some officials have in their heads near the end of a period).

With one specific, very rare exception, officials can't estimate (guess) time passing, and this situation isn't that specific, rare exception:

Basketball Rules Interpretations - 2009-10
SITUATION 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1’s pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2’s touch (a), before A2 releases the throw-in pass to A1, (b), while A2’s throw-in pass is in flight to A1, or (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. RULING: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (a) and (b), the official shall blow the whistle, stop play and direct the timer to put three seconds on the game clock. Since the throw-in had not ended, play is resumed with a Team A throw-in from anywhere along the end line. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 – likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)