And 1 or 2 FTs?
 

End of second period. Drive to the basket A1 gathers the ball on a layup. B1 comes over and fouls him knocking him sideways. You blow your whistle and .5 seconds later the buzzer goes off with A1 clearly still in possession of the ball flying through the air. He tosses it high in the air and 2 minutes later after he has hit the ground it goes in.

And 1 or 2 FTs with .5 seconds left?

Thanks ahead of time, my favorite internet forum.

2 free throws, with no time on the clock. Yes, the player began his habitual motion, and was fouled during his habitual motion preceding the try or tap for goal. Therefore, the foul is a shooting foul. However, because the ball was not released before time expired, the apparent goal that A1 scored does not count.

Therefore, A1 will attempt 2 free throws with the lane cleared, unless there is definite knowledge of the time when the foul was called.

If there is definite knowledge, the game clock will be reset to the amount of time remaining, and A1 will attempt 2 free throws with the lane spaces occupied.

If you put time on the clock you and rule it a shooting foul, then the basket counts. How can you put time on a clock and also rule the shot was not released before time expired?



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You're right. If there is definite knowledge that the foul was committed before time expired and the game clock should have stopped, but didn't due to operator error, the try counts, and A1 receives 1 free throw.

With no definite knowledge, the shot can't count, but A1 gets 2 free throws because the foul was in the act of shooting.

I have been searching the rule book and case book for something that says whether or not you count the basket if released after the buzzer has gone off. Anyone have a rules reference for this?

I think it's in: The ball becomes dead when .... time expires.

Note that while there's and exception for a try in flight, there's no exception for continuous motion, as there is for when the defense commits a foul

In Flight ...
 

Assuming the buzzer was deemed to be "correct" (i.e., no definite knowledge):

6-7: The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
Art. 6 Time expires for a quarter or extra period (see exception a below).
Art. 7 A foul, other than player-control or team-control, occurs (see exceptions a, b and c below).
Exception: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap for field goal ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when:
a. Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.
b. Article 5 or 7 occurs while a try for a free throw is in flight.
c. Article 7 occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for field goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight.

Assuming the buzzer was deemed to be "incorrect" (i.e., definite knowledge):

5-10-1 The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock.

Can't Immediately Release The Ball ...
 

4-41: Art. 2 … A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand as a foul could prevent release of the ball.
Art. 3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

Assuming no buzzer issues:

When does the continuous motion end, in other words how long does continuous motion apply to a "shooter" who can't immediately release the ball because he and the ball are "locked up" due to the foul.

Double pumps? Triple pumps?

Does remaining airborne have anything to do with it?

When does the motion that habitually precedes the release of the ball end?

Situation #1: Airborne shooter begins motion that habitually precedes the release of the ball, said player is fouled, can't continue said motion, ball is withdrawn, said player, while still airborne, is able to "regroup" (double pump) and then release the ball, which goes in the basket.

Situation #2: "Grounded" shooter begins motion that habitually precedes the release of the ball, said player is fouled, can't continue said motion, ball is withdrawn, said player is able to "regroup" (double pump) and then release the ball, which goes in the basket.

But in the scenario, the whistle sounded a discernible time before the buzzer sounded. Doesn't that mean the clock should have been stopped and that time did not expire? So the continuous motion on the foul would mean count the basket?

If the foul is properly called and the clock is properly stopped, then if it is before the buzzer, then you should put time back on the clock. So this should not be an issue. Now if the buzzer goes off and the shooter is fouled afterward, then that is a different story. But it sounds like this would be treated like any other foul that would take place before time has expired.

Peace

Discernible ???
 

Discernible? Not defined by the NFHS.

Definite information includes an official observing (or, wink, wink, nod, nod, claiming that he observed) the scoreboard clock at the exact time of the whistle, or a displayed count (five seconds, ten seconds), or a mental count (three seconds, countdown clock that some officials have in their heads near the end of a period).

With one specific, very rare exception, officials can't estimate (guess) time passing, and this situation isn't that specific, rare exception:

Basketball Rules Interpretations - 2009-10
SITUATION 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1’s pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2’s touch (a), before A2 releases the throw-in pass to A1, (b), while A2’s throw-in pass is in flight to A1, or (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. RULING: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (a) and (b), the official shall blow the whistle, stop play and direct the timer to put three seconds on the game clock. Since the throw-in had not ended, play is resumed with a Team A throw-in from anywhere along the end line. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 – likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)

Properly Stopped ???
 

Why put time back on the clock if it was "properly stopped"?

Is it possible that JRutledge is referring to one of those odd, rare 00.00.00 with no horn situations?

00.00.00 (with clock properly stopped) with no horn doesn't mean one puts time back the clock, one actually doesn't put time back on the clock, it means that the period hasn't ended (assuming that the horn is working properly). Finish the period with ten players on the court (other than free throws, obviously no catch and shoot).

True, but possibly over simplified. It wasn't like "any other foul that (took) take place before time has expired". There was a foul, then an unusual time delay, and then the buzzer sounded. Sounds like the timekeeper was asleep at the switch. First the officials have to deal with definite knowledge, and only if they have such definite knowledge, only then can they put time back on the clock and "(treat it) like any other foul that ... take(s) place before time has expired".

Of course, then the officials have to deal with whether, or not, the continuous motion was actually "continuous" (see my post #8 above). Please note that I'm not saying that this situation wasn't continuous, I just wanted to explore a hypothetical extrapolation of this situation to quench my own curiosity.

Billy,

Sometimes you make this too complicated. If there is a foul before the horn, put some time back on the clock. That is it. You know the foul was before the horn. If you are watching the clock anyway, you can see how much time is on the clock too. Not that difficult, just put time on the clock even if it is .2, and shoot like normal. The way most gyms are configured too, usually the clock is somewhere in the view of both ends. But if you do not have that, still get together and put some time on the clock.

Also, the use of the word discernible was not used to mirror specific rulebook language. The term was used to suggest that if you can determine the foul was before the clock ran out, then put time on the clock. Not every commentary has to use perfect rules-language if we are talking about a way to figure out one thing happening over another thing. You likely know if one happened first.

Peace

Definite Knowledge ...
 

Definite knowledge certainly can be, "See how much time is on the clock", as JRutledge so stated. Officials can also legally use displayed counts and/or mental counts. However officials cannot legally (by the rulebook) use back tracked post event estimated counts (except for a single specific, very rare exception).

Properly Stopped ...
 

Still curious about an explanation as to why an official would put time back on a clock that "properly stopped".

If it was it was a rare 00:00:00 with no horn situation, the period isn't over, the ten players still have to finish the period, and it's not necessary (nor legal) to add time to the clock (assuming said clock properly stopped).

Now, if the clock was improperly stopped (timekeeper was asleep at the switch), only then, with definite knowledge (of many types, however it can't be an illegal back tracked post event estimated count), can officials put time back on the clock.