Golf Clap and Standing Bench Personnel

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I agree with the rest of JRutledge's recent post, but will remind the Forum that his statement above is not completely true. There are rule exceptions to allow some "mob action" by the bench. Bench personnel are always allowed to spontaneously react to an outstanding play by a teammate (or to acknowledge replaced players), but must immediately return to their seats.

To paraphrase JRutledge, many of us will also allow a few other things on a case by case basis using our experience, game management skills, judgement, local "culture", and common sense. I occasionally come across a bench "players", or assistant coaches, that "uncomfortably" delay returning to their seats after enthusiastically cheering (maybe for a tomahawk dunk), and will simply remind them to sit down as I pass the bench (not a written warning), and I'm usually immediately backed up by the head coach, or more often than not, an assistant.

There are schools or programs that have very choreographed responses to many good plays by their team. I cannot think of the school that did it throughout the year and in the NCAA Tournament, but they had some kind of "spontaneous" action ever good play and did it all game. They would do everything from hitting a baseball out of the park to rowing and clearly, none of them were really spontaneous. Never heard anyone suggest we give a T for this. So not sure what I said was not true? It is about perspective. This situation in the OP is no different. I do not think we should micro-manage these situations any more than what we have. And considering all the yelling I hear in my games by certain teams when they are about to win, I am not sure I would ever consider this action if I never considered the others as unsporting to where it results in me giving a T.



Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... then any bench mob action is also a T.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

So not sure what I said was not true?

You said, "then any bench mob action is also a T".

Any? No. Not true.

Any bench "mob action" is not a technical foul. Sure, some bench "mob action" may be a technical foul (taunting), but some bench "mob action" is always legal, by rule.

Here's one "mob action" that is never a technical foul: bench personnel spontaneously reacting to an outstanding play by a teammate but must then immediately return to their seats. Assuming nothing else is complicating the situation, this bench "mob action" is never a technical foul in a high school game. Not even a judgment call. It's never a technical foul (assuming nothing else is complicating the situation).

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Never heard anyone suggest we give a T for this.

Agree.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

You said, "then any bench mob action is also a T".

Any? No. Not true.

Any bench "mob action" is not a technical foul. Sure, some bench "mob action" may be a technical foul (taunting), but some bench "mob action" is always legal, by rule.

Yes any if we take the logic if the OPer's assertion about what he described. Obviously I am not advocating that nor would I use the line he did as a way to find a T in this specific situation.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Here's one "mob action" that is never a technical foul: bench personnel spontaneously reacting to an outstanding play by a teammate but must then immediately return to their seats. Assuming nothing else is complicating the situation, this bench "mob action" is never a technical foul in a high school game. Not even a judgment call. It's never a technical foul (assuming nothing else is complicating the situation).

You are so busy arguing with yourself you missed the point. There are many celebrations that are not spontaneous in reality.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Yes any if we take the logic if the OPer's assertion about what he described.

I think that I agree. Mike Goodwin's original post was a lot more complicated than, as allowed by rule, bench personnel spontaneously reacting to an outstanding play by a teammate and immediately returning to their seats.

Wasn't spontaneous (appears orchestrated over many years). Doesn't appear to be a reaction to a single outstanding play by a teammate (more of a reaction to an assured victory). Bench personnel did not immediately return to their seats. They were up for about ten seconds.

Lots of "gray" areas.

To agree with your earlier point, that's where using our experience, game management skills, judgement, local "culture", common sense, and looking at each situation case by case allows us to react to the situation, maybe ignoring and letting the clock run out, or maybe "bumping up" the situation as a question to be answered by a higher authority. I don't believe that a technical foul in that game based on a single official's belief that it's illegal or unsporting is the way to go here. But I don't question his wanting some outside input into a situation that he believes is questionable in terms of the "standing" rule as written, or as an unsporting act. If the situation keeps bothering him over many years, his best bet is to discuss it with his assigner, an assigner who can then bump it upstairs if he wishes, or if not, tell the official to take a hike.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

To agree with your earlier point, that's where using our experience, game management skills, judgement, local "culture", common sense, and looking at each situation case by case allows us to react to the situation, maybe ignoring and letting the clock run out, or maybe "bumping up" the situation as a question to be answered by a higher authority. I don't believe that a technical foul in that game based on a single official's belief that it's illegal or unsporting is the way to go here. But I don't question his wanting some outside input into a situation that he believes is questionable in terms of the "standing" rule as written, or as an unsporting act. If the situation keeps bothering him over many years, his best bet is to discuss it with his assigner, an assigner who can then bump it upstairs if he wishes, or if not, tell the official to take a hike.

We have all in our career been told the ways of the road. Or the ins and outs of this business. His asking is not an issue at all. The issue is if he goes out on his own doing something and has no support for that action or no one other than him bringing it to his attention to do something. It can bother him just like things bothered us coming up, but the last thing I want him or any official to do is to penalize something that no one is going to support him on because he read a line in the rulebook. Those lines mean something and have precedent and calling a T, near the end of the game might not be a good career move. It is perfectly fine to ask, but understand why we are saying what we are saying about why that might not work out that well if you pull that trigger. It is up to anyone after that to realize what is the best thing to do.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Those lines mean something and have precedent and calling a T, near the end of the game might not be a good career move ... why that might not work out that well if you pull that trigger.

By written rule to back him up, even without playing the "unsporting card", he would be "theoretically" correct to charge a technical foul: wasn't spontaneous, doesn't appear to be a reaction to a single outstanding play by a teammate, and bench personnel did not immediately sit back down.

Three strikes. You're out. Technical foul. "Theoretically".

But we don't officiate "theoretical" basketball games.

In a real game, if he unilaterally pulls the trigger in a ten point game, it would, as JRutledge stated, not be a good career move, even with written rule backing.

Even worse, if he unilaterally pulls the trigger in a two point game, he may never officiate basketball again and could end up officiating The Mark Padgett Memorial Croquet Tournament (game fees plus all the cucumber sandwiches and watercress sandwiches one can eat).

[BillyMac]

Problem solved. Written warning.

May generate a few derogatory remarks by coaches and officiating colleagues, but it won't have a major impact on the long term future of one's basketball officiating career.

On the other hand, it may still be overkill. Never mind.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Even worse, if he unilaterally pulls the trigger in a two point game, he may never officiate basketball again and could end up officiating The Mark Padgett Memorial Croquet Tournament (game fees plus all the cucumber sandwiches and watercress sandwiches one can eat).

Plus one gets to meet many hot single Grandmas.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

...he may never officiate basketball again and could end up officiating The Mark Padgett Memorial Croquet Tournament (game fees plus all the cucumber sandwiches and watercress sandwiches one can eat).

This appears to be a Trumpet of the Swan reference.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Oh how I miss the days when Red would light up a stogie to signify that a Celtics' win was in the bag!

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Oh how I miss the days when Red would light up a stogie to signify that a Celtics' win was in the bag!

10-5-3: Bench personnel, including the head coach, must not: Use alcohol, or any form of tobacco product (e-cigarette or similar items) beginning with arrival at the competition site until departure following the completion of the contest.

Young'uns can check out Red Auerbach on the Google.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

10-5-3: Bench personnel, including the head coach, must not: Use alcohol, or any form of tobacco product (e-cigarette or similar items) beginning with arrival at the competition site until departure following the completion of the contest.

Thanks Billy. I am showing my age, LOL!

MTD, Sr.