Starting the NFHS closely guarded count

[HoopsRefJunior]

Gentlemen:

I'm sure this topic has been discussed many times before on this site, but I am looking for some clarification for a specific situation that created some interesting -- if not heated -- discussion.

The ball is being held in the frontcourt near the table-side sideline. The defender is within six feet, BUT he is clearly off to the side of the ball handler with the intention of either forcing him up the sideline OR to take away his right-hand dribble.

In the judgment of the official, the defender was not between the offensive player and the basket but was at a harsh angle to defend the open floor.

Should the five-count begin or not?

[BillyMac]

4-10: A closely guarded situation occurs when a player in control of the ball in his/her team’s frontcourt, is continuously guarded by any opponent who is within six feet of the player who is holding or dribbling the ball. The distance must be measured from the forward foot/feet of the defender to the forward foot/feet of the ball handler. A closely guarded count must be terminated when the offensive player in control of the ball gets his/her head and shoulders past the defensive player.

4-23-1: Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent.

[HoopsRefJunior]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4-10: A closely guarded situation occurs when a player in control of the ball in his/her team’s frontcourt, is continuously guarded by any opponent who is within six feet of the player who is holding or dribbling the ball. The distance must be measured from the forward foot/feet of the defender to the forward foot/feet of the ball handler. A closely guarded count must be terminated when the offensive player in control of the ball gets his/her head and shoulders past the defensive player.

Billy, thanks for the quick response, and I very much respect your opinions and responses on this site. I've seen this and I've read all the definitions and case book situations I can find, but I guess I'm still not understanding 100%.

So the positioning of the defender (in determining the start of the 5-count) only matters if the ball handler's head extends beyond the defender? With the play in question, the defender was "off to the side" of the ball handler and not between the ball handler and the basket.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by HoopsRefJunior

... I guess I'm still not understanding 100%.

By definition, if the defender is placing his body in the path of a dribbling ball handler, that's guarding, if within six feet, that's closely guarding (by definition, but see below regarding a ninety degree angle).

So, by definition, it really doesn't matter where the basket is, it's where the dribbling ball handler is going.

That said, I'm starting a five second count when the defender is within six feet and is defending the dribbling ball handler at a ninety degree angle, as in the dribbling ball handler moving east/west (across the basketline) and is crossing (not heading toward) the defender.

HoopsRefJunior brings up some great questions.

What if the ball handler is holding the ball? There is no path for the ball handler because he's stationary. So maybe in that case, and maybe only in this case, he can be guarded, and closely guarded, from behind?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

HoopsRefJunior brings up some great questions.

Maybe this is a case of:

"I know it when I see it" is a colloquial expression by which a speaker attempts to categorize an observable fact or event, although the category is subjective or lacks clearly defined parameters. The phrase was used in 1964 by United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart to describe his threshold test for obscenity.

[rbruno]

is the hangup between guarding someone (within 6 ft at any angle) and LGP which is in front of the offensive player less than 6 ft away? If you think about it when a player is trapped along the sideline or division line you would start your 5 sec count no matter where the defender(s) are ... in front, along side, even behind

[Danvrapp]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Maybe this is a case of:

"I know it when I see it"

Thanks for helping us all to "see it!"