FED Exam Strikes Again

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Already asked (but not answered) up in post #22.

And, if this had been an AP throw-in, would the arrow switch?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If the arrow doesn't switch on an illegal kick, I don't believe that it would switch on an illegal touch.

Bob brought up this point and it correctly illustrates what the NFHS means by an illegal touch of the ball.

If there is an AP throw-in by Team A from the front court sideline with 8.4 seconds remaining in the game and the first touch of the passed ball occurs when B1 bats the ball out of the imaginary cylinder above the basket, would the AP-arrow switch?

The answer is yes. We have case book plays instructing us to switch the arrow when the first touch of a throw-in pass is by a player who has one foot touching out of bounds. This is the same thing. The player is contacting the ball while simultaneously committing a violation.

Again to be clear, the only illegal touches which do not start the clock or switch the arrow are a kick or punch of the ball. All other touchings of the ball are legal touches. The illegal act is the commission of some violation separate from the manner in which the ball is touched.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Again to be clear, the only illegal touches which do not start the clock or switch the arrow are a kick or punch of the ball. All other touchings of the ball are legal touches. The illegal act is the commission of some violation separate from the manner in which the ball is touched.

“Again to be clear...” Who died and made you the rule-giver?

I agree with your compelling argument that the BI is a legal touch in its own right, but you have not convinced me that a legal touch requires the consumption of playing time when it coincides with a violation.


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[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Bob brought up this point and it correctly illustrates what the NFHS means by an illegal touch of the ball.

If there is an AP throw-in by Team A from the front court sideline with 8.4 seconds remaining in the game and the first touch of the passed ball occurs when B1 bats the ball out of the imaginary cylinder above the basket, would the AP-arrow switch?

The answer is yes. We have case book plays instructing us to switch the arrow when the first touch of a throw-in pass is by a player who has one foot touching out of bounds. This is the same thing. The player is contacting the ball while simultaneously committing a violation.

Again to be clear, the only illegal touches which do not start the clock or switch the arrow are a kick or punch of the ball. All other touchings of the ball are legal touches. The illegal act is the commission of some violation separate from the manner in which the ball is touched.

Would you care to cite some of these case book plays or rules that support your position?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Would you care to cite some of these case book plays or rules that support your position?

I believe somebody posted up thread something about citations and lawyering

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[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I believe somebody posted up thread something about citations and lawyering

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I'm convinced this is one of those situations where he feels high school needs to be different from college just for the sake of being different, even though he has provided zero evidence that the rule or philosophy differs between the two levels.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

“Again to be clear...” Who died and made you the rule-giver?

I agree with your compelling argument that the BI is a legal touch in its own right, but you have not convinced me that a legal touch requires the consumption of playing time when it coincides with a violation.

That is cool. We can continue to have a discussion about it. Perhaps I will convince you or perhaps I won’t. Either way, it is always a pleasure to talk basketball officiating with you on this forum.

Originally Posted by SC Official

Would you care to cite some of these case book plays or rules that support your position?

I’m not at home at the moment, but I’ll look up a few of them later and post them for everyone to see.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That is cool. We can continue to have a discussion about it. Perhaps I will convince you or perhaps I won’t. Either way, it is always a pleasure to talk basketball officiating with you on this forum.


I’m not at home at the moment, but I’ll look up a few of them later and post them for everyone to see.

NFHS Interps 2007-08
SITUATION 3: During an alternating-possession throw-in for Team A, thrower A1 passes the ball directly on the court where it contacts (a) A2 or (b) B2, while he/she is standing on a boundary line. RULING: Out-of-bounds violation on (a) A2; (b) B2. The player was touched by the ball while out of bounds, thereby ending the throw-in. The alternating-possession arrow is reversed and pointed toward Team B's basket when the throw-in ends (when A2/B2 is touched by the ball). A throw-in is awarded at a spot nearest the out-of-bounds violation for (a) Team B; (b) Team A. (4-42-5; 6-4-4; 9-2-2; 9-3-2)

[Nevadaref]

Compare that play ruling to this one.

4.42.5 SITUATION: Team A is awarded an alternating- possession throw-in. A1’s throw-in pass is illegally kicked by B2. RULING: As a result of B2’s kicking violation, Team A is awarded a new throw-in at the designated spot nearest to where the kicking violation (illegal touching) occurred. Since the alternating-possession throw-in had not been contacted legally, the throw-in has not ended and therefore, the arrow remains with Team A for the next alternating-possession throw-in. COMMENT: The kicking violation ends the alternating-possession throw-in and as a result, a non- alternating-possession throw-in is administered. When the ball is legally touched on the subsequent throw-in following the kicking violation, the arrow shall not be changed and shall remain with Team A. (6-4-5)

[Camron Rust]

Neither of those cases make any suggestion that time must come off the clock. The kick wouldn't, of course, but the touch while OOB is silent on the point. I think that only allows for the possibility of timing coming off the clock, not that time must come off the clock.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If there is an AP throw-in by Team A from the front court sideline with 8.4 seconds remaining in the game and the first touch of the passed ball occurs when B1 bats the ball out of the imaginary cylinder above the basket, would the AP-arrow switch? The answer is yes.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

NFHS Interps 2007-08
SITUATION 3: During an alternating-possession throw-in for Team A, thrower A1 passes the ball directly on the court where it contacts (a) A2 or (b) B2, while he/she is standing on a boundary line. RULING: Out-of-bounds violation on (a) A2; (b) B2. The player was touched by the ball while out of bounds, thereby ending the throw-in. The alternating-possession arrow is reversed and pointed toward Team B's basket when the throw-in ends (when A2/B2 is touched by the ball). A throw-in is awarded at a spot nearest the out-of-bounds violation for (a) Team B; (b) Team A. (4-42-5; 6-4-4; 9-2-2; 9-3-2)

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

4.42.5 SITUATION: Team A is awarded an alternating- possession throw-in. A1’s throw-in pass is illegally kicked by B2. RULING: As a result of B2’s kicking violation, Team A is awarded a new throw-in at the designated spot nearest to where the kicking violation (illegal touching) occurred. Since the alternating-possession throw-in had not been contacted legally, the throw-in has not ended and therefore, the arrow remains with Team A for the next alternating-possession throw-in. COMMENT: The kicking violation ends the alternating-possession throw-in and as a result, a non- alternating-possession throw-in is administered. When the ball is legally touched on the subsequent throw-in following the kicking violation, the arrow shall not be changed and shall remain with Team A. (6-4-5)

Nice situations Nevadaref.

Switching (or not switching) arrows; and starting (or not starting) clocks is a lot more interesting and complex than I thought.

While I'll stubbornly stick to not starting clocks on any and all illegal touches, I'm now more confused than ever on switching, or not switching, arrows.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

NFHS Interps 2007-08
SITUATION 3: During an alternating-possession throw-in for Team A, thrower A1 passes the ball directly on the court where it contacts (a) A2 or (b) B2, while he/she is standing on a boundary line. RULING: Out-of-bounds violation on (a) A2; (b) B2. The player was touched by the ball while out of bounds, thereby ending the throw-in. The alternating-possession arrow is reversed and pointed toward Team B's basket when the throw-in ends (when A2/B2 is touched by the ball). A throw-in is awarded at a spot nearest the out-of-bounds violation for (a) Team B; (b) Team A. (4-42-5; 6-4-4; 9-2-2; 9-3-2)

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Compare that play ruling to this one.

4.42.5 SITUATION: Team A is awarded an alternating- possession throw-in. A1’s throw-in pass is illegally kicked by B2. RULING: As a result of B2’s kicking violation, Team A is awarded a new throw-in at the designated spot nearest to where the kicking violation (illegal touching) occurred. Since the alternating-possession throw-in had not been contacted legally, the throw-in has not ended and therefore, the arrow remains with Team A for the next alternating-possession throw-in. COMMENT: The kicking violation ends the alternating-possession throw-in and as a result, a non- alternating-possession throw-in is administered. When the ball is legally touched on the subsequent throw-in following the kicking violation, the arrow shall not be changed and shall remain with Team A. (6-4-5)

Neither of these case plays proves the point you are so sure you're right about.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Neither of these case plays proves the point you are so sure you're right about.

Are you referring to the clock or the illegal touch definition?
Both of those are to demonstrate what the Fed considers illegal touching.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If there is an AP throw-in by Team A from the front court sideline with 8.4 seconds remaining in the game and the first touch of the passed ball occurs when B1 bats the ball out of the imaginary cylinder above the basket, would the AP-arrow switch? The answer is yes.

Yes?

6-4: ART. 4 The direction of the possession arrow is reversed immediately after an alternating-possession throw-in ends. An alternating-possession throw-in ends when the throw-in ends as in 4-42-5.
ART. 5 The opportunity to make an alternating-possession throw-in is lost if the throw-in team violates. If either team fouls during an alternating possession throw-in, it does not cause the throw-in team to lose the possession arrow. If the defensive team commits a violation during the throw-in, the possession arrow is not switched.

4-42-5: The throw-in ends when:
a. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player inbounds.
b. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player out-of-bounds, except as in 7-5-7.
c. The throw-in team commits a throw-in violation.

A defensive violation switches the arrow here:

NFHS Interps 2007-08 SITUATION 3: During an alternating-possession throw-in for Team A, thrower A1 passes the ball directly on the court where it contacts (a) A2 or (b) B2, while he/she is standing on a boundary line. RULING: Out-of-bounds violation on (a) A2; (b) B2. The player was touched by the ball while out of bounds, thereby ending the throw-in. The alternating-possession arrow is reversed and pointed toward Team B's basket when the throw-in ends (when A2/B2 is touched by the ball). A throw-in is awarded at a spot nearest the out-of-bounds violation for (a) Team B; (b) Team A. (4-42-5; 6-4-4; 9-2-2; 9-3-2)

A defensive violation doesn't switch the arrow here:

4.42.5 SITUATION: Team A is awarded an alternating- possession throw-in. A1’s throw-in pass is illegally kicked by B2. RULING: As a result of B2’s kicking violation, Team A is awarded a new throw-in at the designated spot nearest to where the kicking violation (illegal touching) occurred. Since the alternating-possession throw-in had not been contacted legally, the throw-in has not ended and therefore, the arrow remains with Team A for the next alternating-possession throw-in. COMMENT: The kicking violation ends the alternating-possession throw-in and as a result, a non- alternating-possession throw-in is administered. When the ball is legally touched on the subsequent throw-in following the kicking violation, the arrow shall not be changed and shall remain with Team A. (6-4-5)

[BillyMac]

6.4.5 SITUATION A: Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in under the alternating procedure. A1 commits a violation. RULING: B’s ball for a throw-in because of the violation. In addition, the possession arrow is reversed and is pointed towards B’s basket. Team B will have the next throw-in opportunity under the alternating procedure. Team A has lost its opportunity by virtue of the violation. A violation by Team A during an alternating-possession throw-in is the only way a team loses its turn under the procedure. COMMENT: If a foul by either team occurs before an alternating-possession throw-in ends, the foul is penalized as required and play continues as it normally would, but the possession arrow is not reversed. The same team will still have the arrow for the next alternating-possession throw-in. The arrow is reversed when an alternating-possession throw-in ends. (6-4-4)

6.4.5 SITUATION B: During an alternating-possession throw-in, thrower A1 holds the ball through the end-line plane and B1 grabs it, resulting in a held ball. RULING: Since the throw-in had not ended and no violation occurred, it is still A’s ball for an alternating-possession throw-in. (4-42-5)

4.42.5 SITUATION: Team A is awarded an alternating-possession throw-in. A1’s throw-in pass is illegally kicked by B2. RULING: As a result of B2’s kicking violation, Team A is awarded a new throw-in at the designated spot nearest to where the kicking violation (illegal touching) occurred. Since the alternating-possession throw-in had not been contacted legally, the throw-in has not ended and therefore, the arrow remains with Team A for the next alternating-possession throw-in. COMMENT: The kicking violation ends the alternating-possession throw-in and as a result, a non-alternating-possession throw-in is administered. When the ball is legally touched on the subsequent throw-in following the kicking violation, the arrow shall not be changed and shall remain with Team A. (6-4-5)

9.2.8 SITUATION: Team A is awarded an alternating-possession throw-in. A1 lobs the throw-in pass toward A2 who is breaking to the basket. The throw-in pass is too high and lodges between the ring and backboard. RULING: Violation by A1 for lodging the untouched throw-in pass. Team B’s ball at the throw-in spot. Since A1 violated during an alternating-possession throw-in, Team A has lost the arrow. Team B will have the arrow for the next alternating-possession throw-in. (6-4-5)

2007-08 SITUATION 3: During an alternating-possession throw-in for Team A, thrower A1 passes the ball directly on the court where it contacts (a) A2 or (b) B2, while he/she is standing on a boundary line. RULING: Out-of-bounds violation on (a) A2; (b) B2. The player was touched by the ball while out of bounds, thereby ending the throw-in. The alternating-possession arrow is reversed and pointed toward Team B's basket when the throw-in ends (when A2/B2 is touched by the ball). A throw-in is awarded at a spot nearest the out-of-bounds violation for (a) Team B; (b) Team A. (4-42-5; 6-4-4; 9-2-2; 9-3-2)

2009-10 SITUATION 3: During an alternating-possession throw-in by Team A, B1 breaks the plane of the boundary line. The official stops play. RULING: Team B is issued a warning for breaking the throw-in plane. Since the original alternating-possession throw-in had not ended, the ball is again awarded to Team A and remains an alternating-possession throw-in. Any type of further delay by Team B results in a team technical foul. (4-42-5; 4-47-1; 6-4-4; 7-6-4; 10-1-5c)

2016-17 SITUATION 11: Team A is awarded an alternating-possession throw-in. After A1 releases the ball, B1 commits a kicking violation. RULING: A1’s throw-in has ended because of B1’s kicking violation. A new throw-in is awarded to Team A at the spot out-of-bounds nearest to where the kicking violation occurred. NOTE: Because the defensive team committed a violation during the alternating-possession throwin, the alternating-possession arrow is not switched.