The Upcoming Season WAYGD?

[LRZ]

I volunteer at a hospital and I too am bombarded with information, none of which is as cavalier about the dangers of COVID-19 as you seem to be.

I'm also aware of how little was initially known about coronavirus, a plausible explanation for erroneous prognostications and medical advice and information that later changed as we learned more.

You handle medical wastes, I recall you saying in another thread. You have also referred to nurses in a way that suggests that you are neither a doctor nor a nurse. Regardless of your official job title, it's clear from your posts that you are in the "exaggerated peril" or "hoax" camp. Some of us prefer to be more cautious.

[SNIPERBBB]

Nothing wrong with being cautious. I'm a guy that if I'm not comfortable with a situation, I'm out. You have to way the risks And determine what's appropriate for you. Ive been saying from the start that if you're in the retirement window or a cancer patient or suffer immune system deficiencies you need to be careful and I'm going to avoid you as much as possible.

I'm not the one forcing covid patients in nursing homes then getting a book deal out of it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

... if you're in the retirement window or a cancer patient or suffer immune system deficiencies you need to be careful and I'm going to avoid you as much as possible ...

We don't wear badges that identify us as such. How would you possibly know to avoid us?

If you're a "patriotic" person (President Trump's words), or a caring person, you would totally avoid non-immediate family, avoiding grocery shopping, pharmacy, doctor's office, place of employment, mass transient, elevators, etc., or wear a mask when doing such.

Retirees, cancer patients, and immune system patients, may not have the luxury of sheltering in place, they may have to go to work to earn a living, or take mass transit, or go to the doctor, or shop for food, or pick up a prescription. They may not own a car. They may not have family and friends to help them do such.

And if a healthy person catches the virus from one (who may be presymptomatic or asymptomatic) they (who may also be presymptomatic or asymptomatic) may take it back to family who may be retirees, cancer patients, or immune system patients.

And sometimes otherwise healthy non-elderly people get the virus and get really sick, maybe get put on a ventilator, and maybe die, or maybe have possibly long-lived health problems.

My daughter is a physician, my other daughter is a nurse (who does COVID testing on weekends). They tell me to socially distance, wear a mask, wash my hands, and have discouraged me from going back to the gym, or to church. Combined they have five health related college degrees (including an M.S. in public health, and, of course, an M.D.). I'm also pretty scientifically literate (two college degrees in science) myself. What they tell me is pretty much in line with what the medical and research professionals (NIH, CDC, WHO) now tell us.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

We don't wear badges that identify us as such. How would you possibly know to avoid us?

[SNIPERBBB]

If you recall, people were being told they didn't work at that time. The shows I listened to while the virus was still only in China that were already doing research was saying that n95s would be better to get in case it came here.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

If you recall, people were being told they didn't work at that time ...

What's they? Didn't work doing what? Not sure what the point is?

Yes, medical and research professionals made some early mistakes, but these mistakes weren't quite as simple as some make them out to be, these scientists were not a bunch of nincompoops (a word often used by my German grandmother).

I do recall medical and research professionals saying (incorrectly) that masks wouldn't be necessary (except for those infected and for health care workers), not that they didn't work, but because they believed that asymptomatic spread did not occur with the novel coronavirus.

I also recall medical and research professionals saying (somewhat incorrectly) that anything short of an N-95 mask (like a cloth surgical style mask) would do no good protecting one's self (didn't worry about protecting others because they didn't believe in symptomatic spread).

Scientists have known for a long time (certainly pre-COVID-19), that cloth surgical-style masks were somewhat effective at preventing the spread of viruses exhaled in respiratory droplets.

In any case, "at that time" (early 2020), they were incorrect about asymptomatic/presymptomatic spread, and they may have been somewhat incorrect that cloth surgical style masks would do absolutely no good protecting one's self (as it turns out they may somewhat reduce the devastating effects of the virus).

Other than finger pointing, why live in the past, science marches on with further research.

That's how science works. Aristotle believed in the Theory of Spontaneous Generation. Pasteur proved Aristotle wrong. Science was wrong for 2000 years, but it moves forward, it moves on, that's science.



This novel coronavirus was a brand new human disease in late 2019/early 2020. We learn new things about this novel virus all the time.

Science now tells us to socially distance, wear a mask, and to wash our hands.

It's the best scientific advice we have right now, that advice may eventually change, but until that time we should follow the most up to date advice that we get.

Socially distance (minimum six feet) when possible; when not possible to socially distance wear a mask (for those who medically can) to protect others (and possibly one's self); and wash our hands (or use 80% ethanol or 75% isopropyl alcohol hand sanitizer) often.

It's science, and it's our best bet to get through this in the short term, with as little suffering and death as possible, and to get our economy, education, and health care systems back on track, on track with all of us healthy enough so these systems don't collapse again.

It's the same science that may eventually come up with a safe effective COVID-19 vaccine, or much more effective COVID-19 treatments.

Or we can do nothing, back to work, back to school, no social distancing, no masks, no hand washing, no testing, no contact tracing, treat it like the flu, but with no vaccine. Allow Darwin's Natural Selection to take over, with active immunity building up, and the fittest surviving after a lots of suffering and death and ups and downs with our economy, education, and health care systems.

That's also science.

I chose the former.

Anybody 100% all in with the later? I'm 66, have a heart condition, and have already survived one heart attack. Should I find myself an iceberg? Anybody want to go 50/50 on buying an iceberg for two?

I would like to spend a little more time with my four grandsons before I go to the happy basketball court in the sky. Is it too much for me to ask everyone to wear a mask (I'm sorry that your glasses fog up)?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by LRZ

... the "exaggerated peril" or "hoax" camp.

I'm really getting tired of people interviewed on television, or in the newspaper, who don't wear a mask and then cite that the purpose of a mask is to protect one's self, that masks can't filter out tiny virus particles, and that they should be able to control their own health.

They're partly correct, virus particles are extremely small, and masks can do very little (recent research shows that they can help a little) to protect one's self.

Why don't they get the real scientific reason for wearing a mask?

One wears a mask to protect others.

The mask can filter out the larger respiratory droplets exhaled, sneezed, or coughed out by those infected with the virus (many or whom may be presymptomatic or asymptomatic and not realize that they are infected).

Filtering out these larger respiratory droplets means that the virus particles within these larger respiratory droplets are also filtered out. Masks can decrease the virus particles from spreading to those are at high risk, or to healthy individuals who may then spread it to those at high risk.

These individuals show their scientific ignorance by falsely stating the purpose of masks. What else are they scientifically ignorant about?

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm really getting tired of people interviewed on television, or in the newspaper, who don't wear a mask and then cite that the purpose of a mask is to protect one's self, that masks can't filter out tiny virus particles, and that they should be able to control their own health.

They're partly correct, virus particles are extremely small, and masks can do very little (recent research shows that they can help a little) to protect one's self.

Why don't they get the real scientific reason for wearing a mask?

One wears a mask to protect others.

The mask can filter out the larger respiratory droplets exhaled, sneezed, or coughed out by those infected with the virus (many or whom may be presymptomatic or asymptomatic and not realize that they are infected).

Filtering out these larger respiratory droplets means that the virus particles within these larger respiratory droplets are also filtered out. Masks can decrease the virus particles from spreading to those are at high risk, or to healthy individuals who may then spread it to those at high risk.

These individuals show their scientific ignorance by falsely stating the purpose of masks. What else are they scientifically ignorant about?

It has also been shown that often times wearing masks actually increases the risk of becoming infected. Many people are under the false impression that wearing a mask is an extremely effective deterrent. If you are not wearing an N95 mask, then your mask is only a slightly effective deterrent. Hygiene, especially hand washing, social distancing, and not touching your face repeatedly are all much better deterrents than mask wearing. Unfortunately, because of the false sense of security people get while wearing a mask, they tend to exhibit more reckless behavior. They social distance less, they wash or sanitize their hands less often, and touch their faces much more often. Combined these increased bad behaviors often outweigh any benefit derived from wearing the mask in the first place.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by johnny d

It has also been shown that often times wearing masks actually increases the risk of becoming infected. Many people are under the false impression that wearing a mask is an extremely effective deterrent. If you are not wearing an N95 mask, then your mask is only a slightly effective deterrent. Hygiene, especially hand washing, social distancing, and not touching your face repeatedly are all much better deterrents than mask wearing. Unfortunately, because of the false sense of security people get while wearing a mask, they tend to exhibit more reckless behavior. They social distance less, they wash or sanitize their hands less often, and touch their faces much more often. Combined these increased bad behaviors often outweigh any benefit derived from wearing the mask in the first place.

Sounds quite logical, but citations please.

Outweigh by exactly how much? How much more often?

I actually touch my face far less while wearing a mask, maybe not my eyes, but definitively my nose and mouth.

Sometimes logic and science don't agree. Many believe that the period of a pendulum (the time it takes to swing) depends on the height from which the pendulum is dropped, or on the mass of the pendulum weight, but neither has absolutely no effect on the period, only the length of the pendulum string effects it's period in the real world (for non-excessive angles).

Most people logically think that a feather will be less attracted in the real world by Earth's gravity than a lead weight. Not so, the only reason the feather falls slower on an Earth with an atmosphere is due to aerodynamic drag and surface area. Back in 1971 Apollo astronaut David Scott, while on the surface of the Moon (with no atmosphere) dropped an aluminium geological hammer and a falcon feather, and they hit the ground simultaneously. Galileo did something similar in 1589, dropping cannonballs of various masses off the Leaning Tower of Pisa.